Author Topic: Silencer Dates?  (Read 12293 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Silencer Dates?
« on: February 13, 2011, 04:54:PM »
Silencer Dates?

7th August 1985 - SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4 found at scene by DS "Stan" Jones

(Item SBJ/1, must have been found at the scene, on same date by DS Jones)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9th August 1985 - DS Jones and DCI Jones speak to Jeremy about whether silencer was on gun?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10th August 1985 - Relatives find silencer in gun cupboard

12th August 1985 - Peter Eaton hands silencer over to DS Jones

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

13th August 1985 - silencer (SBJ/1 Lab' item number 22) taken to Lab' to be examined by Glynis Howard

(No paint noticed on silencer at this time)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15th August 1985 - silencer is fingerprinted by oblique light test

23rd August 1985 - silencer is fingerprinted by super-glue treatment

(silencer coated in super-glue residue after exposure to cynoacrylate fumes)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

29th August 1985 - Cook dismantles silencer, rebuilds it and screws it to guns barrel

(no blood seen or found in silencer which Cook (SOC) dismantled and rebuilt)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30th August 1985 - silencer (DB/1 - Lab' item number 23) submitted to Lab'

(Blood group activity obtained from small flake found inside silencer, producing, A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1)...

(First reference to paint on end of silencers end cap, introduced onto General Examination record at this time)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11th September 1985 -  Relatives find silencer in gun cupboard at whf

(David Boutfloyur contacts Essex police to inform them that he has found a silencer in the gun cupboard at whf)

(Ann Eaton hands silencer to Essex police)

13th September 1985 - DS Eastwood and DS Davidson fingerprint silencer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

26th September 1985 - silencer (DRB/1) submitted to Lab'
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 05:16:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 05:23:PM »
If relatives only found one silencer in the gun cupboard, it could not have been found there, on both the 10th August 1985, and on 11th August 1985. The same silencer could not also have been handed over to the police on two separate occasions, namely, on 12th August 1985 by Peter Eaton to DS Stan Jones, and also on 11th September 1985, by Ann Eaton, to DC Oakey, or to DC Jones. The same silencer could not have been at the lab' from 30th August 1985, onward, and be sent to the lab' on 26th September 1985...

There appears to have been three different identical looking silencers:-

SBJ/1 Lab' item number 22

DB/1 Lab' item number 23

DRB/1

Which for one reason or another, the police and the relatives hav sought to merge into one silencer (only)...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mb1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2011, 06:08:PM »
So there are actually 6 silencers?

4 silencers found on 07/08/85 - SBJ/1, 2, 3 and 4
SBJ1 lab tested 13th 15th 23rd 08/85
Results of SBJ 2, 3 + 4 are?

1 silencer found 10/08/85
Given to police 12/08/85
Does this become DB1 lab tested DB1 on 30/08/85?

1 silencer found 11/09/85
This becomes DRB1 lab tested 26/09/85

Seems to be long gaps between possession of evidence and submission to lab...

Silencer dismantled 29/08/05 by Cook
Only silencer not in lab on 29/08/05 is DB1.
May I clarify - is this the ONLY silencer that tested positive for human DNA?

Offline mb1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 06:20:PM »
And is DB/1 the only silencer marked by the paint sample matching the mantlepiece? 

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2011, 06:44:PM »
So there are actually 6 silencers?

4 silencers found on 07/08/85 - SBJ/1, 2, 3 and 4
SBJ1 lab tested 13th 15th 23rd 08/85
Results of SBJ 2, 3 + 4 are?

1 silencer found 10/08/85
Given to police 12/08/85
Does this become DB1 lab tested DB1 on 30/08/85?

1 silencer found 11/09/85
This becomes DRB1 lab tested 26/09/85

Seems to be long gaps between possession of evidence and submission to lab...

Silencer dismantled 29/08/05 by Cook
Only silencer not in lab on 29/08/05 is DB1.
May I clarify - is this the ONLY silencer that tested positive for human DNA?
---------------------------------------------------------

No, not six silencers...

DS Jones took possession of four exhibits from the scene on the 7th August 1985, two from the downstairs toilet and two others from the kitchen, these were given, DRB/2 - item from downstairs toilet, DRB/3 and DRB/4, other items from the kitchen and of course, if he took possession of those three items from the scene on 7th August 1985, he must also have taken possession of item SBJ/1 from the scene that same morning - SBJ/1 being the identifying mark of the silencer which was sent to the Lab' on 13th August 1985...

Items marked, DRB/2, DRB/3 and DRB/4, are listed in the original Property Register, in connection with the initial investigation that was being carried out under SC/688/85, or in other words, four murders and a suicide. However, once the nature of the investigation changed into five murders under SC/786/85, these exhibits and their corresponding exhibits reference's numbers, DRB/2, DRB/3 and DRB/4, were not carried over into the new property registers, which were created so that Jeremy could be prosecuted as the killer...

It was known, that a silencer and .22 bolt action rifle belonging to another relative (Anthony Pargeter) was normally kept in the downstairs toilet, and indeed, Jeremy even listed this weapon on a list he was asked to draught up, of firearms inside the farmhouse that the police should know about before they went in, and so to all intents and purposes, this other .22 rifle and its silencer should have been there in the toilet. Since, exhibit DRB/2 was found in the same downstairs toilet, on 7th August 1985, by DS Jones, and the identifying mark of the first silencer that was sent to the Lab' on 13th August 1985, was SBJ/1, which was a silencer, it must follow that DS Jones took possession of a silencer from the downstairs toilet on 7th August 1985, and that this was covered up by the police and relatives, so that the Bamber silencer which was normally kept in the gun cupboard, and which was not found there until 11th September 1985, could be introduced in its place, to make out that there was only one silencer in police possession in connection with this investigation, not two or three different ones...

When DS Jones was interviewed by COLP in 1991, he told them that he and DCI Jones had gone to see Jeremy at his cottage, 9 Head Street, Goldhanger, to speak to him about whether or not the silencer was fitted to the gun on the evening prior to the shootings? What this demonstrates is that the police knew about a silencer, the day before David Boutflour allegedly found one in the gun cupboard at whf on Saturday, 10th August 1985, which was not actually or supposedly handed over to the police until the evening of 12th August 1985...

How did the police, know about the silencer on 9th August 1985, to enable DS Jones and DCI jones to question Jeremy about it, on 9th August 1985, unless the police already had a silencer in their possession by that stage?

SBJ/1, was therefore the silencer belonging to Anthony Pargeter, and this was the silencer which was actually sent to the Lab' to be checked by Glynis Howard on 13th August 1985...

--------------------------------------------

It may well be that peter Eaton handed over a silencer to the police on 12th August 1985, but this could not have been the Bamber silencer, since it was not found in the gun cupboard until 11th September 1985. Therefore, if Peter Eaton handed over a silencer to DS Jones on the evening of 12th August 1985, that silencer must have belonged to one of the other relatives, namely one of the Boutflours, whic eventually was dismantled and rebuilt by Cook on 29th August 1985, and subsequently screwed onto the barrel of the bloodstained Bamber rifle, before being submitted to the Lab' on 30th August 1985, under the identifying mark DB/1...

Paint from the aga in the kitchen at whf was found upon this (DB/1) silencer, and the flake of blood which was supposedly found inside a silencer once it had been submitted to the lab' on 30th August 1985, must have been found inside this silencer (DB/1) because the Bamber silencer had not yet been discovered and would not be discovered inside the gun cupboard until 11th September 1985...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Once the flake was found inside silencer DB/1, it was examined with a view to producing blood group results, which were obtained between 12th and 19th September 1985...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bamber silencer (DRB/1) which was not found in the gun cupboard until 11th September 1985, was not actually submitted to the Lab' until 26th September 1985, much too late for the blood group activity which was obtained from the examination of the flake found in the other silencer (DB/1), to be remotely associated with it, or to it...

----------------------------------------
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 06:56:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mb1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 06:53:PM »
Thanks for that. Lots to take on board there so I'll have to take my time! As you may have gathered from my posts, at present I view the silencer as the key so I really do want to understand.

Two immediate questions - did DRB 1, 2, 3 and 4 become SBJ 1,2 3, and 4 with the change from charge change from suicide + murders to murder?

What items were DRB 2, 3 and 4?

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 06:54:PM »
I thought that items DRB/2 and DRB/3 were collected from Ann Eaton by Oakey on 11th September.

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 06:55:PM »

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 07:01:PM »
What does DRB stand for? Come to that, what does DRH stand for as well?

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 07:58:PM »
Thanks for that. Lots to take on board there so I'll have to take my time! As you may have gathered from my posts, at present I view the silencer as the key so I really do want to understand.

Two immediate questions - did DRB 1, 2, 3 and 4 become SBJ 1,2 3, and 4 with the change from charge change from suicide + murders to murder?

What items were DRB 2, 3 and 4?
------------------------------------

No, items SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4, which were recorded in the original file under SC/688/85, disappeared altogether from the new file under SC/786/85...

In my view they disappeared because they showed or establish  a link between the silencer SBJ/1 and DS Jones finding it at the scene on 7th August 1985...

SBJ/1 was the silencer which DS Jones found at the scene, in particular in the downstairs toilet, on 7th August 1985...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 08:06:PM »
Thanks for that. Lots to take on board there so I'll have to take my time! As you may have gathered from my posts, at present I view the silencer as the key so I really do want to understand.

Two immediate questions - did DRB 1, 2, 3 and 4 become SBJ 1,2 3, and 4 with the change from charge change from suicide + murders to murder?

What items were DRB 2, 3 and 4?
------------------------------------------

These were items which were found in the gun cupboard along with the Bamber silencer (DRB/1), which originally had Ann Eaton's identifying marks, CAE/?, CAE/? and CAE/?

These exhibit references were subsequently altered to DRB/2, DRB/3 and DRB/4, once the nature of the investigation altered, from SC/688/85 into SC/786/85 - in the new file, Ann Eaton did not have any exhibits bearing her own identifying mark, CAE/? In the old file, she did not have an exhibit bearing the exhibit reference CAE/1 - which effectively was the silencer that her brother David Boutflour found in the gun cupboard at whf on 11th September 1985, and which she handed over to the police on that same date...

They lied about when the Bamber silencer (DRB/1) was found in the gun cupboard, by falsely claiming it was found on 10th August 1985, instead of the correct date it was found, which was 11th September 1985...

Thus the silencer (SBJ/1 - lab' item number 22 which was submitted to the lab' on 13th August 1985, and the other silencer, DB/1 - lab' item number 23, became merged together with the Bamber silencer (DRB/1) and the evidence doctored to promote the idea that there was only one silencer, not at least three different ones...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 08:12:PM »
My head is spinning with all these SJBs, DRBs, and DRH's, not to mention the AEs ........... ;D

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 08:28:PM »
There will be those amongst us, who do not buy into the three different silencers scenario, those who continue to believe that Silencer SBJ/1, was the same silencer as DB/1 which in turn was the same silencer as DRB/1, but I would ask those persons to question how the police could have known about a silencer by 9th August 1985, to enable DS Jones and DCI Jones to question Jeremy about the silencer at his cottage in Goldhanger, on 9th August 1985, if the relatives did not find the silencer until 10th August 1985, or 11th September 1985? If the relatives did not find the silencer in the gun cupboard until 10th August 1985 and they did not hand it over to DS Jones by 12th August 1985, why would DS Jones be speaking to Jeremy about it on 9th August 1985? It doesn't add up or make any sense, to believe in that scenario, since, the police obviously knew about the silencer before the relatives found it in the gun cupboard, whether or not, they found it there on 10th August 1985, or 11th September 1985...

If the relatives found a silencer in the gun cupboard, they could only have found it there on one occasion, not two separate occasions, and they could only have handed it over to the police on one occasion, not two different ones, and why do two different relatives hand the silencer over to two different police officers on two different dates? On the other hand it remains possible that Ann Eaton handed the silencer she handed over to the police, to DS Jones, not to DC Oakey on the 11th September 1985, and that they suggested it had been handed over to DC Oakey as part of the cover up regarding how these different silencers all became merged into one and the same silencer...

Even more puzzling, is that if these (SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/1) were all the same silencer, how one (DB/1) could be submitted to the lab' on 30th August 1985, and yet another (DRB/1) still be in the possession of the police, which was not submitted to the lab' to be checked for fibers until 26th September 1985? How could the same silencer be in two different places at the same time? How could silencer DB/1 be at the Lab' from 30th August 1985, to enable the ballistic expert to discover the crucial flake of blood trapped between baffles one and two, whilst silencer DRB/1, was still in the possession of the police, where it would remain until 26th September 1985?

You only then have to look at the position of the baffle plates as shown by reference to the photographs of the silencer which Cook (SOC) dismantled and rebuilt on 29th August 1985, against the position of the baffle plates by the time of another forensic examination performed by Glynis Howard on 29th April 1986, to realize that the baffle plates had changed position within the confines of the silencers tubing?  Downward facing on 29th August 1985, upward facing by 29th April 1986?

If all of these silencers (SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/1) were one and the same, then somebody tampered with the silencer, no doubt about it...

It was introduced to allow the prosecution to wrongly allege that the silencer was fitted to the gun at the time Sheila Caffell was shot and killed, and that whoever killed her, removed it from the end of the guns barrel after she was dead, and took it away to conceal it in the gun cupboard, where David Boutflour so conveniently found it at some point afterwards...

The prosecution alleged that with the silencer fitted to the end of the guns barrel, the weapon would have been too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to shoot herself by use of it, even if she had wanted to...

But if the silencer evidence was compromised, the case against Jeremy collapses...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 08:31:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 08:33:PM »
My head is spinning with all these SJBs, DRBs, and DRH's, not to mention the AEs ........... ;D
--------------------------------------------------------

Yes, you can jest all you want about this, but it ws under these conditions and circumstances, that Essex police and the relatives pulled off a naughty one, regarding the three different identical looking Parker hale silencers by tampering with the evidence to make them all into one and the same silencer, where SBJ/1, and DB/1, and DRB/1, all became one and the same silencer...

In the meantime...

None of the relatives made a witness statement or signed an exhibit label for the silencer, until on and after 12th September 1985...

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

andrea

  • Guest
Re: Silencer Dates?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 08:35:PM »
apologies for going off topic here. question for mike tesko: when nevilles body was discovered was he wearing socks?