Is there a catch to the windows?

[Patti]

After the murders it was established that the police had made an inspection of all the 1st floor windows at WHF and said they were closed.

Between the 8th and 10th of September 1985 a forensic team did an extensive examination of all the windows on the 1st floor and came up with nothing.

On the 1st of October according to the 2002 appeal, another forensic team headed by Elliott did another examination of the windows on the 1st floor. The catch in the downstairs toilet/bathroom had scratch marks underneath it and the frame of the windows on the inside were damaged, but the outside looked fresh and clean.

R. Cook states in his statement that he took the catch from the said bathroom window on the 27th of September.  So if R Cook took the catch on the 27th, how come Elliot's forensic team found the catch on the 1st of October.

We also know that JB entered that window on the 16th of September having been questioned by police....So it was inevitable that there would be damage on the bathroom from this said date.

So which is it? Did cook take it like he says on the 27th of September RWC/10
Or did Elliot's team take it on the 1st of October....

Or did Cook remove it and put it back, thus making the catch already scratched??

Thank you to Bridget who made reference to this a few days ago...

[maggie]

After the murders it was established that the police had made an inspection of all the 1st floor windows at WHF and said they were closed.

Between the 8th and 10th of September 1985 a forensic team did an extensive examination of all the windows on the 1st floor and came up with nothing.

On the 1st of October according to the 2002 appeal, another forensic team headed by Elliott did another examination of the windows on the 1st floor. The catch in the downstairs toilet had scratch marks underneath it and the frame of the windows from on the inside was damaged, but the outside looked fresh and clean.

R. Cook states in his statement that he took the catch from the said bathroom window on the 27th of September.  So if R Cook took the catch on the 27th, how come Elliot's forensic team found the catch on the 1st of October.

We also know that JB entered that window on the 16th of September having been questioned by police....

So which is it? Did cook take it like he says on the 27th of September RWC/10
Or did Elliot's team take it on the 1st of October....

Thank you to Bridget who made reference to this a few days ago...

Hi Patti, it's a bit.like the silencer debacle....maybe there was more than one downstairs toilet window.......... maybe one was discovered in the gun cupboard

[Bridget]

You mean ground floor windows patti

Here is the relevant part of Cook's statement:



And this is the relevant part of the Appeal court judgment:

On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.

[Patti]

1st floor is the ground floor Bridget...

Here is an extract from the 2002 appeal regarding the examination.

The examination of the Farm for entry and exit marks became particularly significant. On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.

[Bridget]

1st floor is the ground floor Bridget...

Not round here it isn't!

As far as I can tell from the photos and floorplans there is only one window in the downstairs bathroom / toilet, and that is the only sash window in that part of the house.

[Patti]

Hi Patti, it's a bit.like the silencer debacle....maybe there was more than one downstairs toilet window.......... maybe one was discovered in the gun cupboard

Hi maggie, it is a bloody good fine and, it is thanks to Bridget...

[Patti]

No round here it isn't!

As far as I can tell from the photos and floorplans there is only one window in the downstairs bathroom toilet, and that is the only sash window in that part of the house.

It is up here lol

2nd floor being the upstairs...I will have to check on it being the only sash window on the GROUND floor lol 

[Patti]

Do you guys think it will be OK if I tweet this information? 

[Bridget]

It is up here lol

2nd floor being the upstairs...I will have to check on it being the only sash window on the GROUND floor lol 

It's the window on the opposite side to the kitchen door, just to the right of where the grey part of the building joins the red bit.

[Patti]

It's the window on the opposite side to the kitchen door, just to the right of where the grey part of the building joins the red bit.

On the white side? I see. 

A number of things spring to mind, for Cook gives it an exhibit number.....RWC/8

So you are right what was Elliott looking at, if he claims the catch was scratched...

[Bridget]

RWC/8

[grahameb]

I wonder why he didn't examine the catch on the day of the murders? But waited until the 1st of October.

[Bridget]

This side:

[Patti]

I wonder why he didn't examine the catch on the day of the murders? But waited until the 1st of October.

They were checked on the day Grahame by DC Jones....

Then, between the 8th to 10th of September forensic examined the windows and there was nothing found.

Cook then takes the catch on the 27th of September according to his statement and gives it numbers it RWC/8

Then according to the 2002 appeal Elliott's forensic team find the catch scratched....how can this be possible...unless Cook put the catch back...Its a question that needs to be asked...

[Bridget]

So... possibilities:

The date in Cook's statement is wrong? Unlikely I think since he goes on to say what he did on the 1st.

The date given for Elliot's visit in the 2002 appeal is wrong - but if it was he who removed it and gave it to Cook, why doesn't it have his initials in the reference instead of Cook's?

There are two parts to a sash catch, one attached to each sash. He removed the upper one and the scratches were seen on the lower one? Might that be why Elliot was called in?

Someone replaced the catch with either the original or a replacement and that's what Elliot looked at?

Did Elliot actually examine the catch at the lab, rather than in situ, after it had been removed?