telephone logs.

[-Harters-]

I think it makes as much sense as your theories,JR.

Which particular theory of mine did you have in mind?

[lookout]

Which particular theory of mine did you have in mind?

Regarding the non-use of of the 999 facility,,JR. Your version and ours. Theories,yes.?

[-Harters-]

Regarding the non-use of of the 999 facility,,JR. Your version and ours. Theories,yes.?

It's not a theory 'Lookout', it's a comparison of Jeremy's reasons for choosing to call a local number, in his own words, versus something plucked out of thin air and posted on the forum.

You can disagree with Jeremys explanation if you want to though. 

[mike tesko]

Even if Jeremy had dialled 999 instead of contacting the police, via the local exchange, he would have still said what he said, and still probably spoken to PC West, or alternatively, spoken directly to Malcolm Bonnet...

[Neil]

It's not a theory 'Lookout', it's a comparison of Jeremy's reasons for choosing to call a local number, in his own words, versus something plucked out of thin air and posted on the forum.

You can disagree with Jeremys explanation if you want to though. 

If Jeremy was trying to cover up, how did calling the local fuzz help?  Surely, if he was trying to make it look as convincing as possible, he would have dialed 999!

[Roch]

I would suggest in the strongest possible terms that in fact the police did obtain access to these metered call records, and that they found out the true sequence of events involving all the calls made from whf and from Jeremys cottage, between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985 and 8am on Wednesday, 7th August 1985. These were deliberately withheld and concealed  from the defence and the court which tried this matter, because the prosecution had to try and portray Jeremy as a liar, and to suggest that Ralph Bamber did not make the call to him from whf to his cottage in the middle of the night, when all along police had confirmation that such a call had taken place...

Thank you for the documents you sent me.  They are very interesting indeed and pose rather interesting questions, as you have expressed already.

[Jane]

Why would Jeremy call 999? It was obviously not an emergency situation at the time of Ralph's call otherwise he would have called 999 himself or at least asked Jeremy to contact the police. The telephone logs could prove Jeremy's innocence because anyone who had been contacted by a call from WHF on the night of the murders would have come forward so it's not feasable that the call could have been to anyone else.

I suggest that if these occurances were in any way habitual, then so was the code of behaviour put in place to deal with them and if NOT dialling 999 was part of that code, because "we deal with these things ourselves" and I can't imagine Jeremy would EVER have told anybody that he didn't call it because his father had told him not to.

[Neil]

Thank you for the documents you sent me.  They are very interesting indeed and pose rather interesting questions, as you have expressed already.

I absolutely agree.  If presented with these facts, could/would the CCRC ask to look through the relevant PII material ?  Or would this have already happened?

[vidvic]

Can I just ask mike, how long have you had these papers and, if there was any value to them, why you've never done anything with them?

What proof exactly lies in them of calls between WHF and Jeremy's house?

[-Harters-]

Even if Jeremy had dialled 999 instead of contacting the police, via the local exchange, he would have still said what he said, and still probably spoken to PC West, or alternatively, spoken directly to Malcolm Bonnet...

He would not have spoken to PC West at Chelmsford Police Station, 999 calls were only answered at HQ (Also in Chelmsford but in a separate building), where Bonnett was stationed.

Jeremy stated that he didn't think that it would make any difference to the response time of the police, whether he rang the local police station or dialled 999.

Extract from 2002 Appeal Judgement.

29. The appellant told the officers about the telephone call from his father, adding that it sounded as though someone had cut him off. When asked if it was possible that his sister was inside with a gun he said yes. He told the police that he did not get on with her. He was asked if it was likely that his sister had gone berserk with a gun and he replied, "I don't really know. She is a nutter. She's been having treatment." When asked why his father had called him and not the police, he said that his father was not the sort of person to get "organisations" involved, preferring to keep things within the family. When asked why he had not dialled 999, the appellant said he did not think it would make any difference to the time it would have taken for the police to arrive.

If Jeremy had simply dialled 999, then yes it would have been quicker than searching for Witham Police Stations number, ringing that number and not getting any answer, then searching for Chelmsford Police Stations number, dialling that number and getting through to PC West, then being placed on hold whilst PC West spoke to Bonnett and an unknown police officer at Witham, before finally being told that the police were on their way and Jeremy should meet them there.

Whether Jeremy knew it would be quicker or not, I have no idea but he suggests that he didn't. He didn't just choose to dial the local number because he didn't think it was an emergency, or at least that is not a claim that I have ever seen him make, on the the contrary, his words: "you've got to help me"; "he sounded terrified" whilst speaking to PC West, suggests that he did indeed consider the situation to be an emergency.

I'm guessing that it is the prosecutions argument that Jeremy called the local police rather than dialling 999 because the response would be slower.

I'm not quite sure what the argument is here, it's a relatively minor point, although I would have expected his reaction to be an immediate 999 call following the alleged call from Ralph.
I would not have expected him to spend up to 10 minutes searching for telephone numbers and attempting to get through to local police stations.
Also we've got to fit in Jeremys call to Julie in at some point, if it was before calling the police, then it indicates an even greater delay and lack of urgency.

Not that any of this, by itself, indicates that he is guilty of course.

[mike tesko]

The metered call log would also contain relevant information abouty the activated attack alarm linked to the farmhouse telephone line. In particular, the metered call log should pinpoint exactly when the attack alarm was set off, in the geans scheme of things...

[tonyb]

The metered call log would also contain relevant information abouty the activated attack alarm linked to the farmhouse telephone line. In particular, the metered call log should pinpoint exactly when the attack alarm was set off, in the geans scheme of things...

If the log shows alarm activated it would of sent a signal to a recepient to say the alarm has gone off. Who was the intended recipient? local police station,central control,who? If the alarm was unable to send the signal,ie phone line engaged / off hook / disconected, there will be no record.

[tonyb]

Can I just ask mike, how long have you had these papers and, if there was any value to them, why you've never done anything with them?

What proof exactly lies in them of calls between WHF and Jeremy's house?

thats just the problem
theres no proof of what exact time or the exact destination of the calls
its not itemised so i cant see it proves anything.
the fact as youve said the calls are metered were actually dealt with in an earlier thread where pictures of the meters were shown.
IF i were to conceed that the bills prove that the police were able to retrospectivly request the relevent data from BT I would want to see that. As it is, saying they did it but being unable to prove it is not going to help the cause

[-Harters-]

thats just the problem
theres no proof of what exact time or the exact destination of the calls
its not itemised so i cant see it proves anything.
the fact as youve said the calls are metered were actually dealt with in an earlier thread where pictures of the meters were shown.
IF i were to conceed that the bills prove that the police were able to retrospectivly request the relevent data from BT I would want to see that. As it is, saying they did it but being unable to prove it is not going to help the cause

From the 2002 AJ.

68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.

[Patti]

Possible the reason Jeremy didn't dial 999 was because this kind of thing might have happened before, but no one had got to know about it? But of course there may be many reason why he didn't? They have been times when I could have dialed 999 and afterwards I wish I had. But there was this thought at the back of my mind, "Should I bother the police when it may turn out to be nothing?" After all the family were no strangers to Sheila's outbursts and lets face it, what is a slim petite girl like Sheila going to to?
But have you noticed that after nearly every shooting where innocent people are massacred those that knew the shooters say things like, "I could never picture him as a murderer. He was such a mild mannered person". It is always a surprise that those particular people could do such terrible things.

Hi Grahame, I wonder if it did happen before..Is there any way of checking?

I think JB was careful not to phone 999.  At this point there was no real insight to what was about to happen. Maybe he thought a local police car was the answer and, did not think it appropriate to send squad cars and, that his local copper could calm whatever the situation was at the farm.

It is so easy to say with hindsight that he should have dialled 999