Author Topic: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF  (Read 248183 times)

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Offline Bridget

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1365 on: August 21, 2012, 10:41:PM »
Whilst some of you are not reading the four books on the case because you might be influenced by one particular author's point of view,others like myself are trawling through them in an attempt to ascertain facts,lies and hearsay and feel empowered enough to make up our own minds as to whom one chooses to believe or not.

Out of interest, how do you know the authors aren't using a certain amount of 'poetic licence'? None of them provide proper references for all of the information they contain, especially Wilkes.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1366 on: August 21, 2012, 10:57:PM »
Out of interest, how do you know the authors aren't using a certain amount of 'poetic licence'? None of them provide proper references for all of the information they contain, especially Wilkes.
That is what I think Bridget. I don' think they are totally factual I'm sure there is some 'poetic license' involved.

Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1367 on: August 22, 2012, 08:40:AM »
Once again you totally misread the human psyche and I am sick of quoting the seven or eight people whose anecdotal evidence is damning to the Jeremy supporters' cause. The glossy brochures on the coffee table at Goldhanger in the days after the murders were certainly not kit cars,but then I'm past caring,and the aphorism "if ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise" springs to mind.

If you are sick of quoting anecdotes, perhaps it's time for you to stop. There really is not the necessity for you to make yourself sick on our behalf.

I would be very surprised if, during the course of your life, you never have on a coffee table, brochures displaying whatever it is you may long for, from bathrooms to Bali or kitchens to cars. It might suggest of you, that you have dreams, that you have earned, won or inherited money or taken out a loan. It is unlikely to suggest that you've killed. You, who have the temerity to tell us we have no understanding of the human psyche, may be surprised to learn that people regularly collect brochures of things they yearn for, or simply need.

Not only do you appear to have little knowledge of the human psyche, you appear to have NO knowledge of human psychology and on occasions I find myself wondering whether you're a man or a machine.

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1368 on: August 22, 2012, 09:48:AM »
If you are sick of quoting anecdotes, perhaps it's time for you to stop. There really is not the necessity for you to make yourself sick on our behalf.
I would be very surprised if, during the course of your life, you never have on a coffee table, brochures displaying whatever it is you may long for, from bathrooms to Bali or kitchens to cars. It might suggest of you, that you have dreams, that you have earned, won or inherited money or taken out a loan. It is unlikely to suggest that you've killed. You, who have the temerity to tell us we have no understanding of the human psyche, may be surprised to learn that people regularly collect brochures of things they yearn for, or simply need.
Not only do you appear to have little knowledge of the human psyche, you appear to have NO knowledge of human psychology and on occasions I find myself wondering whether you're a man or a machine.
I congratulate you on a supreme post april....not a word I would disagree with.  You always knew your psychology degree would come in handy!!!!!  ;D

Offline Bridget

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1369 on: August 22, 2012, 10:03:AM »
£250?? Are you mad? ;)
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Bridget

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1370 on: August 22, 2012, 10:23:AM »
It was just to illustrate the point  ;)

So you say...;)
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1371 on: August 22, 2012, 11:06:AM »
Good morning ladies, well, those of you who are here!!! As I was reading last nights posts on the "Off topic" thread, I was reminded that all groups however small, are microcosms of what is happening in the wider world. None of us need reminding of the horrendous spiteful and frankly, childish squabbling which is presently threatening the stability of the forum, and which, during the day and early evening many of us seem to be doing our best to preserve.

Last night, a new thread, requesting "Amoment of your time" was started by Mat, who said, publically that he had removed himself from "the other" site on the grounds that the person who he believed to have set him up was a different person and when he said the things he said to the people he said it to it was because someone else had told him that the other person had said things about him! Confused, ladies? Believe me, by the time I'd finished reading, SO WAS I!!! The whole thing reminded me of how many of our villages, towns and cities change personality at night, and what may be a pleasant place to meet friends for lunch or supper, becomes something totally other after 11pm. Thus it was last night. The thread rapidly descended into a free for all in which the foulest of language was being thrown around and Mat was, once again, showing signs of the paranoia which caused the problem in the first place. His belief, (never, it seems, far from the surface, worries me, not least because he uses it a means of not having to take responsibility for his own behaviour,) that he is being persecuted, indicates that he is likely to fire the gun before asking the question, as IMO he has done in his dealings with Grahame. It also indicates serious errors of judgement in his readiness to trust the wrong people which could end up placing him in a position from which he cannot easily extricate himself if he doesn't do something to address it.

What ever it was that was driving forward last nights dialogue, I'm very thanful not to have been part of.

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1372 on: August 22, 2012, 11:41:AM »
Good morning ladies, well, those of you who are here!!! As I was reading last nights posts on the "Off topic" thread, I was reminded that all groups however small, are microcosms of what is happening in the wider world. None of us need reminding of the horrendous spiteful and frankly, childish squabbling which is presently threatening the stability of the forum, and which, during the day and early evening many of us seem to be doing our best to preserve.

Last night, a new thread, requesting "Amoment of your time" was started by Mat, who said, publically that he had removed himself from "the other" site on the grounds that the person who he believed to have set him up was a different person and when he said the things he said to the people he said it to it was because someone else had told him that the other person had said things about him! Confused, ladies? Believe me, by the time I'd finished reading, SO WAS I!!! The whole thing reminded me of how many of our villages, towns and cities change personality at night, and what may be a pleasant place to meet friends for lunch or supper, becomes something totally other after 11pm. Thus it was last night. The thread rapidly descended into a free for all in which the foulest of language was being thrown around and Mat was, once again, showing signs of the paranoia which caused the problem in the first place. His belief, (never, it seems, far from the surface, worries me, not least because he uses it a means of not having to take responsibility for his own behaviour,) that he is being persecuted, indicates that he is likely to fire the gun before asking the question, as IMO he has done in his dealings with Grahame. It also indicates serious errors of judgement in his readiness to trust the wrong people which could end up placing him in a position from which he cannot easily extricate himself if he doesn't do something to address it.

What ever it was that was driving forward last nights dialogue, I'm very thanful not to have been part of.
April, what can I say, you put in a nutshell what I have been tryin g to ennunciate for months.  Thank you so much.  When I joined the forum, at the begining of March it was a pleasant enough place with decent debate and the occasional dispute.  Since then this forum has been torn apart, while I cannot say that one person is to blame for it all there certainly seems to be a pattern to the attack, withdraw and lets see if we can start a riot here mentality.   It's a little like chucking a grenade in and seeing who takes the worst of the blast. imo

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1373 on: August 22, 2012, 11:51:AM »
April, what can I say, you put in a nutshell what I have been tryin g to ennunciate for months.  Thank you so much.  When I joined the forum, at the begining of March it was a pleasant enough place with decent debate and the occasional dispute.  Since then this forum has been torn apart, while I cannot say that one person is to blame for it all there certainly seems to be a pattern to the attack, withdraw and lets see if we can start a riot here mentality.   It's a little like chucking a grenade in and seeing who takes the worst of the blast. imo
In my opinion I believe if Grahame had support in any form when he posted about his mother's abuse, we would not be in the sorry state we are now in. 
Whatever axe anyone has to grind against Grahame I believe we should all agree that it was a dispicable act which should not be acceptable. 
My argument to mat at that time was that Grahame's mother was an innocent, we mainly are lucky enough to have or have known one and no mother should be treated in this way. 
Mat refused to condemn the posting of the photo because he would not be seen to stand up for Graham and against the red forum.
 
My point is that it is a moral question as to whether this is acceptable and actually nothing to do with Grahame per se.
 
I wonder, as very shortly afterwards Mat stated he had left the red forum because he had apparrently just fallen in love with Jackie and Steph, is he now prepared to show his moral calibre and state that photos of elderly mothers with smutty inuendo beneath it is never acceptable whoever it is aimed at? 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:59:AM by maggie »

Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1374 on: August 22, 2012, 11:53:AM »
Maggie, I think that saying "it's a little like chucking in a grenade and seeing who takes the worst of the blast" says it perfectly. Perhaps all WE need to do is wait for the occasion when it fails to leave the hand of the person who is throwing it!!!

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1375 on: August 22, 2012, 11:55:AM »
Maggie, I think that saying "it's a little like chucking in a grenade and seeing who takes the worst of the blast" says it perfectly. Perhaps all WE need to do is wait for the occasion when it fails to leave the hand of the person who is throwing it!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D....brilliant april!!x

Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1376 on: August 22, 2012, 12:20:PM »
In my opinion I believe if Grahame had had support in any form when he posted about his mother's abuse, we would not be in the sorry state we are now in. 
Whatever axe anyone has to grind against Grahame I believe we should all agree that it was a dispicable act which should not be acceptable. 
My argument to mat at that time was that Grahame's mother was an innocent, we mainly are lucky enough to have or have had one and no mother should be treated in this way. 
Mat refused to condemn the posting of the photo because he would not be seen to stand up for Graham and against the red forum. 
My point is that it is a moral question as to whether this is acceptable and actually nothing to do with Grahame per se. 
I wonder as very shortly afterwards Mat stated he had left the red forum because he had apparrently just fallen in love with Jackie and Steph.
is he now prepared to show his moral calibre and state that photos of elderly mothers with smutty inuendo beneath it is never acceptable whoever it is aimed at?

Maggie, just when I believe there is nothing left to shock me I find find myself shocked by the depths of sick depravity to which some people can sink and believe themselves to be funny. I have to ask if Mat was too scared, or simply deficient in moral fibre, to condem such a dispicable and cowardly act? I picked up that he was prepared to denounce all his past behaviour, except that which concerned Grahame, from which I can only assume that he didn't believe that the posting of a picture of an elderly lady, and the insulting and derisive behaviour it incurred, to be inappropriate, which IMO says much about him. I also have to wonder for how long it would be possible to maintain a friendship with somebody who supports such behaviour and for how long could their loyalty be trusted.


Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1377 on: August 22, 2012, 02:02:PM »
Hi April1

Here, here old bean  ;).

I personally would like to see a much, much tougher line with moderating now eg possibly a mod drawing up a bank of questions to test knowledge and style of posting before allowing the potential new member to post.  In the first instance they wld be allowed access to all the info and posts but not actually be allowed to post.  Ha ha bet this suggestion gets some laughs  ;D

I think it wld also be a good idea to have some balance in the mod community ie an anti and a waiverer.

It wld be interesting to know how other forums fare where emotive topics are being discussed.  Also as you said, is the late night boorish behaviour on this forum typical of forums within the UK and a mirror of every High St up and down the country ie does this sort of thing go on in European countries/forums?  Perhaps locking the forum up for posting at say 11pm or midnight might be an idea?  Posters can research the case and then post the following morning.

The nettle has to be grasped.  Otherwise the minority spoil it for the majority.  I'm just pleased to hear Mike is mulling things over re the future of the forum.   :)

Egap, hi and thanks for the vote of confidence. Do you know, I haven't been called "old bean" since I was at school!!!!!

You're absolutely right. There need to be strictly adhered to rules surrounding the behaviour of members. I don't mean "one strike and you're out", I understand that passions run high concerning highly immotive issues, but the use of foul language and spiteful acts against members should not be given the chance to happen a THIRD time. I realize that lifetime bans can't be policed, but if the persona doesn't fit with clearly defined forum rules, bans should be put in place. At the moment it IS a minority who are causing problems and if it's not contained it will grow. Does anybody recall "Animal Farm"?

I think your idea regarding potential new members is a sound one. It may help to sort out the wheat from the chaff, but at the very least prevention is better than cure. Maybe we could persuade other members loyal to Mike to come up with their own ideas and perhaps together we can persuade him that we believe the future of the forum is worth fighting for.

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1378 on: August 22, 2012, 02:07:PM »
Egap, hi and thanks for the vote of confidence. Do you know, I haven't been called "old bean" since I was at school!!!!!

You're absolutely right. There need to be strictly adhered to rules surrounding the behaviour of members. I don't mean "one strike and you're out", I understand that passions run high concerning highly immotive issues, but the use of foul language and spiteful acts against members should not be given the chance to happen a THIRD time. I realize that lifetime bans can't be policed, but if the persona doesn't fit with clearly defined forum rules, bans should be put in place. At the moment it IS a minority who are causing problems and if it's not contained it will grow. Does anybody recall "Animal Farm"?

I think your idea regarding potential new members is a sound one. It may help to sort out the wheat from the chaff, but at the very least prevention is better than cure. Maybe we could persuade other members loyal to Mike to come up with their own ideas and perhaps together we can persuade him that we believe the future of the forum is worth fighting for.
Hi April, I had a thought earlier this morning that you would make a very good mod.  You are very perceptive, which is necessary for good modding and intelligent.  However, I'm sure you will say you are too busy and wouldn't want the hassle for which I could not blame you.xx

Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #1379 on: August 22, 2012, 02:30:PM »
Hi April, I had a thought earlier this morning that you would make a very good mod.  You are very perceptive, which is necessary for good modding and intelligent.  However, I'm sure you will say you are too busy and wouldn't want the hassle for which I could not blame you.xx

Lovely Maggie, I feel very humbled by your generous words. My ego is big enough to believe itself capable of being an innovator , ahead and "out there", but my id knows that I work best as a facilitator, behind the scenes, giving support and encouragement. I certainly could make time available but I don't think I would cope well with the hassle, however, I would be more than happy to lend support to anyone undertaking such a thankless position.........and thank you for showing such faith in me xx