Bamber guilty, surely!

[ngb1066]

There were several entry wounds to the victims which were larger than the .22 inch diameter of the bullets used.  Mike has argued that this supports the proposition that a larger calibre weapon may have been used, possibly one of the police weapons.  My own view is that entry wounds may be larger than the bullet which caused them.  The Eley subsonic hollowpoint bullets used were designed to expand or fragment and depending upon the angle of contact, the range and the nature of the impact point it would be possible to see different sizes of entry wound caused by the same weapon.  In addition there is a suggestion that some of the ammunition used may have been Pargeter's high velocity copper jacketed ammunition rather than the Eley subsonic hollowpoint ammunition normally used with the Bamber rifle.

Hi Ngb

You sound like a firearms expert.....Would the entry wounds be larger or smaller with distance?

Or would they be larger or smaller, depending which area of the body was shot?

It is possible two guns where used.....because for example.....Say the poor little ones were shot first, that is 9 gone leaving 2 and 1 in the whatever you call it.....
 
The killer would have to re-load........could have gone down the stairs across from the twins room....but why risk that? Other members of the family could have woken up....

The main difference is the area of body shot.  If the area is soft tissue there is less of a tendency for the bullet to expand.  If on the other hand an area with bone underneath the skin is shot the bullet is likely to expand immediately.  Distance could made a slight difference - a contact shot may result in a slightly larger entry wound.  The angle is more important.  A shot striking the point of impact at an angle is likely to cause a larger entry wound.

 

[Patti]

The main difference is the area of body shot.  If the area is soft tissue there is less of a tendency for the bullet to expand.  If on the other hand an area with bone underneath the skin is shot the bullet is likely to expand immediately.  Distance could made a slight difference - a contact shot may result in a slightly larger entry wound.  The angle is more important.  A shot striking the point of impact at an angle is likely to cause a larger entry wound.

 

Gotcha! Thank you NGB1066....

[G]

Of course she could have showered like some suggest.

Looking at Shelia's body, then at June's, one would automatically think, that June had walked around a crime scene rather than her daughter.

Looking at June, I think she may have been moved from her original death position.  Who could have done that and why?

Unless as it has been suggested the police played with the bodies, photographing then in different positions?

[Patti]

Unless as it has been suggested the police played with the bodies, photographing then in different positions?

Hi G

I can't imagine why they would do such a thing, for what purpose, do you suppose?.....

One thing is for sure June must have been moved, and there is photographic evidence to say both daughter and mother were moved.....

June's arm is stiff and sticking out, that tells any crime scene officer that she had been moved after rigour mortise. 

[G]

Hi G

I can't imagine why they would do such a thing, for what purpose, do you suppose?.....

One thing is for sure June must have been moved, and there is photographic evidence to say both daughter and mother were moved.....

June's arm is stiff and sticking out, that tells any crime scene officer that she had been moved after rigour mortise. 

Hi Patti, It was suggested a while back that some photographs showed that the bodies had been photographed in different positions as a matter of horseplay by the SOC officers. The are apparently photographs in existence and have been a matter of complaint which showed police officers urinating against a greenhouse and one was on the roof waving etc.

I can't be sure but it was also suggested that the bodies had been photographed in different sexual positions by some police officers? And this was part the reason for the cover-up and why the police were very reluctant and resisted so much against releasing all the photos. And when some were finally released some of them had been cut out of the reel and have not been accounted for.

[mike tesko]

Watch this space later on tonight for an update about all the photographs which were taken in connection with this case, and how over 358 pictures were deliberately withheld and concealed, and the reasons for such concealment...

[Patti]

Hi Patti, It was suggested a while back that some photographs showed that the bodies had been photographed in different positions as a matter of horseplay by the SOC officers. The are apparently photographs in existence and have been a matter of complaint which showed police officers urinating against a greenhouse and one was on the roof waving etc.

I can't be sure but it was also suggested that the bodies had been photographed in different sexual positions by some police officers? And this was part the reason for the cover-up and why the police were very reluctant and resisted so much against releasing all the photos. And when some were finally released some of them had been cut out of the reel and have not been accounted for.

Hi G

For the life of me I would never understand and can't even contemplate that SOC officers' would do such a thing and, if they did then they should be made accountable for it....but, I doubt it very much.

I hope that people doubt that those sort of accusations and rumours are unfounded.

The problem we have here G is that we are only privy to what we are shown or should I say available.  If we were privy to ALL case documents,  we might see another kettle of fish....lol

[bob]

Bob, had Neville ever witnessed Sheila having a 'paranoid episode' prior to the murders?  She often phoned him in the middle of the night claiming to be all sorts of people eg Joan of Arc, leader of cnd etc.

Where does this info come from egap?

Dr Ferguson's witness states Neville had a positive/calming affect on her.  Freddie's wit stat states when Nevill was called (night) re Sheila having a 'paranoid episode' he said he was unable to come (Tolleshunt to Maida Vale) until the following morning.  When he arrived Freddie said he cldn't believe the change in her ie she became completely 'normal'.  This leads me to believe Nevill was unaware that Sheila presented any real risk to herself or others otherwise he wld have made an emergency visit or taken some other action.  Also Dr F stated that had Nevill had discussed with Sheila the fostering of the twins this wld have changed her view of Nevill from a secure mentor to a hostile figure.

Why did Neville call Jeremy then if he didn't believe she represented a real danger, and Neville was the one who had previously had a positive/calming effect on Sheila?

[tyler]

Hi G

For the life of me I would never understand and can't even contemplate that SOC officers' would do such a thing and, if they did then they should be made accountable for it....but, I doubt it very much.

I hope that people doubt that those sort of accusations and rumours are unfounded.

The problem we have here G is that we are only privy to what we are shown or should I say available.  If we were privy to ALL case documents,  we might see another kettle of fish....lol

Patti,some people believe that bodies were moved etc when a raid training team went into the house after the original raid.There is more information regarding this somewhere on the forum.

[mike tesko]

Total number of photographs taken in connection with this case was 581, these were kept in a photographed album which became known as THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM, and was kept under lock and key in ACC (O) Peter Simpsons office safe at DHQ...

[mike tesko]

Total number of photographs taken in connection with this case was 581, these were kept in a photographed album which became known as THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM, and was kept under lock and key in ACC (O) Peter Simpsons office safe at DHQ...

Once Jeremy Bamber was arrested, police created another album which was designed to fool Jeremy Bamber and the courts into believing that police had only taken 223 photographs, which they duly made into a separate album, which became known as THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...

Bambers solicitors were invited to attend police Headquarters to view the entire contents of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM, and order as many photographs as they needed from it for use in Bambers defence. But they were unaware of the existence of the other SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM containing all 581 pictures, or the fact that some 358 had been edited out and not formed part of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...

[mike tesko]

Once Jeremy Bamber was arrested, police created another album which was designed to fool Jeremy Bamber and the courts into believing that police had only taken 223 photographs, which they duly made into a separate album, which became known as THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...

Bambers solicitors were invited to attend police Headquarters to view the entire contents of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM, and order as many photographs as they needed from it for use in Bambers defence. But they were unaware of the existence of the other SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM containing all 581 pictures, or the fact that some 358 had been edited out and not formed part of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...

By the time the case came to court in October 1986, police had created another album for use during the trial, and for the benefit of the jury, this album became known as THE COURT ALBUM, and consisted of only 50 preselected photographs taken from THE MASTER COPY ALBUM, aforementioned...

[mike tesko]

In a nutshell, here are the basic facts regarding these three photographic albums:-

(1) - SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM has 581 photographs

(2) - THE MASTER COPY ALBUM has 223 photographs (358 missing from (1) above)

(3) - THE COURT ALBUM has 50 photographs (531 missing from (1) above, and 173 missing from (2) above)

[mike tesko]

In a nutshell, here are the basic facts regarding these three photographic albums:-

(1) - SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM has 581 photographs

(2) - THE MASTER COPY ALBUM has 223 photographs (358 missing from (1) above)

(3) - THE COURT ALBUM has 50 photographs (531 missing from (1) above, and 173 missing from (2) above)

So...

by the time the matter came before the court to be tried, at Chelmsford Crown coourt on 2nd October 1986, Bambers solicitors, the court and the jury, were not aware that another 358 photographs existed which were capable of undermining a fundamental part of the prosecutions case, namely that Jeremy Bamber had stage managed the scene to make it look like Sheila had shot and killed the others, and then taken her own life by shooting herself dead on the bedroom floor with use of the family owned rifle?

[mike tesko]

So...

by the time the matter came before the court to be tried, at Chelmsford Crown coourt on 2nd October 1986, Bambers solicitors, the court and the jury, were not aware that another 358 photographs existed which were capable of undermining a fundamental part of the prosecutions case, namely that Jeremy Bamber had stage managed the scene to make it look like Sheila had shot and killed the others, and then taken her own life by shooting herself dead on the bedroom floor with use of the family owned rifle?

Pause and think about that for a moment...