Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...

[mike tesko]

Jeremy - he has proof and intends to bring action against the family and the executor of his parents estate...

He has proof that Sheila was in the kitchen when the police got in, and he has proof that Robert Boutflour knew that?

Even if he does have proof of that, Robert Boutflour did not inherit anything - that has to be remembered, so Jeremy would have to prove that Pamela Boutflour knew as well.

-----------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour was out to protect the interests of his children, and his wife...

[Kaldin]

Jeremy - he has proof and intends to bring action against the family and the executor of his parents estate...

He has proof that Sheila was in the kitchen when the police got in, and he has proof that Robert Boutflour knew that?

Even if he does have proof of that, Robert Boutflour did not inherit anything - that has to be remembered, so Jeremy would have to prove that Pamela Boutflour knew as well.

-----------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour was out to protect the interests of his children, and his wife...

Even so, Robert Boutflour can't be sued or prosecuted now anyway.

[mike tesko]

In any event, at the time of the deaths, The Boutflours owed a substantial amount of monies to Ralph Bambers estate, that he loaned to them, because they could not afford to pay off a debt to a university, and if the monies had not been paid, Ann and Peter Eaton, would have been evicted from their farm...

These monies were never repaid, nor included in the estate of Ralph Bamber...

So, this needs to be investigated by the police...

I would think that was a civil matter really. The loser in that would be Anthony Pargeter and co as things stand at the moment.

If you mean it was a motive for conspiring to pervert the course of justice that's a different matter, but the issue of the motive of the family to lie was looked into at the time.

-----------------------------------------------

Monies loaned to the relatives so that Ann and Peter Eaton could continue to live on the f arm, was never investigated or looked into at the time - this was because Jeremy was never in a position to actually inherit anything, nothing had been sorted out properly before his arrest and incarceration, so the matter of the monies loaned to the relatives to allow Ann and Peter to keep living on their farm, was never an issue which Jeremy had to deal with...

[mike tesko]

The relatives were very worried at the time, that if Jeremy inherited his parents estate that he would raise the matter of the huge loan given to the relatives to allow Ann and Peter Eaton to continue to live at the farm...

Relatives were worried that Jeremy would demand the monies to be repaid, and the relatives imply could not afford to raise it...

This might be motive enough for the relatives to try and put Jeremy in the frame...

It might help to explain why all the relatives appear to have ganged up against Jeremy, and the lengths to which they went to try and get the police to change their minds about Jeremy being the killer, not Sheila...

[Kaldin]

Jeremy - he has proof and intends to bring action against the family and the executor of his parents estate...

He has proof that Sheila was in the kitchen when the police got in, and he has proof that Robert Boutflour knew that?

Even if he does have proof of that, Robert Boutflour did not inherit anything - that has to be remembered, so Jeremy would have to prove that Pamela Boutflour knew as well.

Are you saying that a husband would not benefit from his wife's inheritance?

No, I'm saying that Robert Boutflour could not be sued for the money even if he was alive because he didn't inherit anything. Pamela Boutflour would have to be sued, and there is no proof she knew anything. There's no proof that Robert did either, but of course he can't be libelled because he's dead.

[Kaldin]

In any event, at the time of the deaths, The Boutflours owed a substantial amount of monies to Ralph Bambers estate, that he loaned to them, because they could not afford to pay off a debt to a university, and if the monies had not been paid, Ann and Peter Eaton, would have been evicted from their farm...

These monies were never repaid, nor included in the estate of Ralph Bamber...

So, this needs to be investigated by the police...

I would think that was a civil matter really. The loser in that would be Anthony Pargeter and co as things stand at the moment.

If you mean it was a motive for conspiring to pervert the course of justice that's a different matter, but the issue of the motive of the family to lie was looked into at the time.

-----------------------------------------------

Monies loaned to the relatives so that Ann and Peter Eaton could continue to live on the f arm, was never investigated or looked into at the time - this was because Jeremy was never in a position to actually inherit anything, nothing had been sorted out properly before his arrest and incarceration, so the matter of the monies loaned to the relatives to allow Ann and Peter to keep living on their farm, was never an issue which Jeremy had to deal with...

I understand, but all that would only matter if Jeremy is ever in a position to sue for the return of his parent's assets, and at the moment he's not in that position.

[mike tesko]

Jeremy - he has proof and intends to bring action against the family and the executor of his parents estate...

He has proof that Sheila was in the kitchen when the police got in, and he has proof that Robert Boutflour knew that?

Even if he does have proof of that, Robert Boutflour did not inherit anything - that has to be remembered, so Jeremy would have to prove that Pamela Boutflour knew as well.

Are you saying that a husband would not benefit from his wife's inheritance?

No, I'm saying that Robert Boutflour could not be sued for the money even if he was alive because he didn't inherit anything. Pamela Boutflour would have to be sued, and there is no proof she knew anything. There's no proof that Robert did either, but of course he can't be libelled because he's dead.

---------------------------------------------

This is not about whether or not Robert Boutflour could be sued, or whether or not his wife Pamela could be sued, its about the threat to his children, and their children, and family loosing their home, because they could not afford to repay the loan to Ralph Bambers estate, and Robert Boutflour, and all the other relatives knew, that Ralph had bailed them out of a very difficult situation, and if Jeremy inherited, the relatives, either individually or collectively, would have to find someway of raising the capital to repay the loan to Ralph's estate...

The issue is...

Whether this feature could have influenced what Robert Boutflour was doing, and what he did, in trying to convince the police that Sheila, had not done, what she had done, and that it was Jeremy, all along...

Boutflour would have known that if Jeremy was convicted of the murders that Jeremy could not be a beneficiary of his parents estates - its as simple as that really, nothing too complicated, that ordinary folk can't get their heads around...

[mike tesko]

In any event, at the time of the deaths, The Boutflours owed a substantial amount of monies to Ralph Bambers estate, that he loaned to them, because they could not afford to pay off a debt to a university, and if the monies had not been paid, Ann and Peter Eaton, would have been evicted from their farm...

These monies were never repaid, nor included in the estate of Ralph Bamber...

So, this needs to be investigated by the police...

I would think that was a civil matter really. The loser in that would be Anthony Pargeter and co as things stand at the moment.

If you mean it was a motive for conspiring to pervert the course of justice that's a different matter, but the issue of the motive of the family to lie was looked into at the time.

-----------------------------------------------

Monies loaned to the relatives so that Ann and Peter Eaton could continue to live on the f arm, was never investigated or looked into at the time - this was because Jeremy was never in a position to actually inherit anything, nothing had been sorted out properly before his arrest and incarceration, so the matter of the monies loaned to the relatives to allow Ann and Peter to keep living on their farm, was never an issue which Jeremy had to deal with...

I understand, but all that would only matter if Jeremy is ever in a position to sue for the return of his parent's assets, and at the moment he's not in that position.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree, since all of this may have some bearing upon the motive for why Robert Boutflour used his influence to try and get Jeremy arrested for the murders, and convicted - Boutflour went to extraordinary lengths to achieve this...

I think it does have some bearing upon the possible motive for why Robert Boutflour tried to set Jeremy up...

[Kaldin]

By 8:10am, the premises had been comprehensively searched, and a further three bodies reported to have been found upstairs, making five dead in total...

At no stage was there ever a mention of a fourth body having been found upstairs, prior to 8:10am, at which point the armed operation inside whf was terminated and senior police officers, requested to move into the farmhouse from their position in a nearby (out building) forward control point...

At 8:10am, the operation inside the farmhouse was over, and there was no report of a fourth body having been found upstairs, by that stage...

With this in mind, and if the body of Ralph Bamber had been mistakenly identified as the body of Sheila, why wasn't there any mention of a fourth body having been found upstairs, before or by 8:10am? The simple answer is because there wasn't a fourth body upstairs prior to 8:10am...

I have seen a log which says that three further bodies were found, and I agree that is suggestive, but I don't know what log that is or where the information came from - I only have a snippet from it. It doesn't appear to be on the log written by Norman because the writing is different.

[Kaldin]

This is not about whether or not Robert Boutflour could be sued, or whether or not his wife Pamela could be sued, its about the threat to his children, and their children, and family loosing their home, because they could not afford to repay the loan to Ralph Bambers estate, and Robert Boutflour, and all the other relatives knew, that Ralph had bailed them out of a very difficult situation, and if Jeremy inherited, the relatives, either individually or collectively, would have to find someway of raising the capital to repay the loan to Ralph's estate...

The issue is...

Whether this feature could have influenced what Robert Boutflour was doing, and what he did, in trying to convince the police that Sheila, had not done, what she had done, and that it was Jeremy, all along...

Boutflour would have known that if Jeremy was convicted of the murders that Jeremy could not be a beneficiary of his parents estates - its as simple as that really, nothing too complicated, that ordinary folk can't get their heads around...

I was trying to establish if you were talking about a motive for perverting the course of justice or not, and it seems that you are.

Robert Boutflour did go out of his way to convince the police Jeremy did it - I'm not disputing that.

The first question is did he fabricate evidence against Jeremy? I've seen nothing to suggest he did.

The second question is - did he know for a fact that Jeremy didn't do it? I've seen nothing to suggest that he did.

He may well have hoped Jeremy did it for the reasons you've outlined, and he obviously wanted the police to think that, but that's very different to actually conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

[mike tesko]

By 8:10am, the premises had been comprehensively searched, and a further three bodies reported to have been found upstairs, making five dead in total...

At no stage was there ever a mention of a fourth body having been found upstairs, prior to 8:10am, at which point the armed operation inside whf was terminated and senior police officers, requested to move into the farmhouse from their position in a nearby (out building) forward control point...

At 8:10am, the operation inside the farmhouse was over, and there was no report of a fourth body having been found upstairs, by that stage...

With this in mind, and if the body of Ralph Bamber had been mistakenly identified as the body of Sheila, why wasn't there any mention of a fourth body having been found upstairs, before or by 8:10am? The simple answer is because there wasn't a fourth body upstairs prior to 8:10am...

I have seen a log which says that three further bodies were found, and I agree that is suggestive, but I don't know what log that is or where the information came from - I only have a snippet from it. It doesn't appear to be on the log written by Norman because the writing is different.

------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the log which states that at 8:10am, a further three bodies were found upstairs, making five dead in total, is very interesting, because by that stage , the other two bodies, had already been found downstairs, upon entry...

It becomes absolutely clear, by reference to that log (sorry if you have not yet seen it) that at 8:10am, the premises had been completely searched by that stage, and there was no reference to a fourth body having been present or having been found upstairs...

Now, we have heard how the police attempt to get around the suggestion that there was some mix up surrounding a body that was found in the Kitchen where the police are now saying that the body of Ralph was mistakenly identified as a dead female, a mistake which was only rectified once the police got into the Kitchen - but if that was the case, were is the corresponding explanation for why they only found three bodies upstairs, when there should have been four (by 8:10am)?

By 8:30pm, the bodies were distributed differently...

Only one body downstairs in the kitchen, and four bodies upstairs in the bedrooms...

You do not have to be a genius to work it out that there must have been a displacement of one body (a female body) from downstairs, to upstairs in the interim period (at some time between 8:10am and 8:30am)...

Now I am prepared to look at and consider any explanation which the police might decide to come up with, to account for how these three bodies which were found upstairs by 8:10am, managed to become transformed into four bodies by 8:30am, that same morning...

I await the explanation with bated breath...

[Kaldin]

By 8:10am, the premises had been comprehensively searched, and a further three bodies reported to have been found upstairs, making five dead in total...

At no stage was there ever a mention of a fourth body having been found upstairs, prior to 8:10am, at which point the armed operation inside whf was terminated and senior police officers, requested to move into the farmhouse from their position in a nearby (out building) forward control point...

At 8:10am, the operation inside the farmhouse was over, and there was no report of a fourth body having been found upstairs, by that stage...

With this in mind, and if the body of Ralph Bamber had been mistakenly identified as the body of Sheila, why wasn't there any mention of a fourth body having been found upstairs, before or by 8:10am? The simple answer is because there wasn't a fourth body upstairs prior to 8:10am...

I have seen a log which says that three further bodies were found, and I agree that is suggestive, but I don't know what log that is or where the information came from - I only have a snippet from it. It doesn't appear to be on the log written by Norman because the writing is different.

------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the log which states that at 8:10am, a further three bodies were found upstairs, making five dead in total, is very interesting, because by that stage , the other two bodies, had already been found downstairs, upon entry...

It becomes absolutely clear, by reference to that log (sorry if you have not yet seen it) that at 8:10am, the premises had been completely searched by that stage, and there was no reference to a fourth body having been present or having been found upstairs...

Now, we have heard how the police attempt to get around the suggestion that there was some mix up surrounding a body that was found in the Kitchen where the police are now saying that the body of Ralph was mistakenly identified as a dead female, a mistake which was only rectified once the police got into the Kitchen - but if that was the case, were is the corresponding explanation for why they only found three bodies upstairs, when there should have been four (by 8:10am)?

By 8:30pm, the bodies were distributed differently...

Only one body downstairs in the kitchen, and four bodies upstairs in the bedrooms...

You do not have to be a genius to work it out that there must have been a displacement of one body (a female body) from downstairs, to upstairs in the interim period (at some time between 8:10am and 8:30am)...

Now I am prepared to look at and consider any explanation which the police might decide to come up with, to account for how these three bodies which were found upstairs by 8:10am, managed to become transformed into four bodies by 8:30am, that same morning...

I await the explanation with bated breath...

I have seen the log and I saved it in the thread I started for official documents. I agree that one is a puzzle, but I would like to see more of the log and to see it in context - ie, who wrote it, where did the info come from, etc.

If the log had said that without the reference to the seach being complete I would think that they just hadn't seen Sheila's body yet, but it does say the search had been completed.

[mike tesko]

This is not about whether or not Robert Boutflour could be sued, or whether or not his wife Pamela could be sued, its about the threat to his children, and their children, and family loosing their home, because they could not afford to repay the loan to Ralph Bambers estate, and Robert Boutflour, and all the other relatives knew, that Ralph had bailed them out of a very difficult situation, and if Jeremy inherited, the relatives, either individually or collectively, would have to find someway of raising the capital to repay the loan to Ralph's estate...

The issue is...

Whether this feature could have influenced what Robert Boutflour was doing, and what he did, in trying to convince the police that Sheila, had not done, what she had done, and that it was Jeremy, all along...

Boutflour would have known that if Jeremy was convicted of the murders that Jeremy could not be a beneficiary of his parents estates - its as simple as that really, nothing too complicated, that ordinary folk can't get their heads around...

I was trying to establish if you were talking about a motive for perverting the course of justice or not, and it seems that you are.

Robert Boutflour did go out of his way to convince the police Jeremy did it - I'm not disputing that.

The first question is did he fabricate evidence against Jeremy? I've seen nothing to suggest he did.

The second question is - did he know for a fact that Jeremy didn't do it? I've seen nothing to suggest that he did.

He may well have hoped Jeremy did it for the reasons you've outlined, and he obviously wanted the police to think that, but that's very different to actually conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

---------------------------------------------

But he did conspire to pervert the course of justice, and he was involved in the elaborate conspiracy surrounding how the silencer was introduced and falsely used to help secure convictions for these murders against Jeremy...

The Bamber silencer, was not found in the gun cupboard at whf on Saturday, 10th August 1985, that is and was a deliberate lie - the Bamber silencer was not found in the gun cupboard until 11th September 1985, a month later - yet Robert Boutflour states that ghis son, David Boutflour found that silencer inside the gun cupboard and that it had paint upon it from the aga, and blood on it, and that he was involved in making arrangements for it to be handed to the police by Peter Eaton on 12th August 1985, when to be frank, it was all a pack of lies...

What Robert Boutflour and his son, David, forgot to mention was that they had handed their own identical Parker hale silencers to the police, as part of the police investigation, which is very interesting, since, the blood expert, later concluded that blood found inside the silencer he examined (DB/1) could have originated from Sheila Caffell and Robert Boutflour...

Now if you want to get into a debate about what I know about the silencer issue, you would be talking to someone who knows just about everything there is to know, about all the different silencers (SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/10 which the police had in their possession as part of their investigations, because I was the one who helped to uncover how these different silencers have been portrayed as being one and the same...

Forgive me, but I do not need to be convinced by anybody that the relatives did not conspire together over the silencer issue to help get Jeremy convicted for these murders - there is now too much evidence top favor them trying to frame Jeremy for anyone to easily ignore...

[Kaldin]

So the 3 bodies upstairs were Daniel, Nicholas and June - but Sheila was on the bed in June's room - how could they miss her?

Er ... she was on the floor on the other side of the bed.

[mike tesko]

So the 3 bodies upstairs were Daniel, Nicholas and June - but Sheila was on the bed in June's room - how could they miss her?

---------------------------
They couldn't, not at, or by  8:10am - three bodies upstairs did not take Sheila into account at all, otherwise there would have been a reference at or by 8:10am, of four bodies upstairs...

How could the police have searched the premises completely, by 8:10am, and not seen Sheila either on the bed or the bedroom floor? If Sheila was upstairs by that stage, there would have been two bodies in each room, June and Sheila in one, and the two child victims in the other - that makes four bodies, but we know that there was only three, because it says so...