Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...

[Kaldin]

He would surely have guessed earlier than that, that with Sheila & Jeremy out of the picture, Robert's family, in one way or another, would benefit from Jeremy's conviction?

Not if the twins inherited based on the youngest dying last rule.

[Kaldin]

true carry, very true,the family called jeremy greedy etc. who were really the greedy ones? it was them, and greedy to the extent of bribing the police force in to arresting jeremy for the murders, and the poor bloke as a result spending more than half his life behind bars.also at the same time denying the victims the justice and truth they deserved.

I've not seen anything about Bribes? Fair play if its posted somewhere but do becareful.
You never know who reads this forum and what some would class as libel or something.. something I guess we all have to remember when posting.
This event affects alot of people.

Hmmmmmm. Robert Boutflour can't be libelled of course, but that doesn't mean that people should jump to the conclusion that he knew Jeremy hadn't done it.

[mike tesko]

Robert Boutflour, and his family, were in debt to the Estate of Ralph Bamber, at the time of the deaths at whf - Ralph had paid off a huge debt connected with a payment to a university, that allowed Ann Eaton and her husband Peter, to continue living on their farm...

The monies loaned to the Boutflours / Eatons, to prevent the farm being taken off them, was not included in Ralph Bambers estate...

Evidence exists to show that Ralph Bamber bailed the Boutflours out over this matter, but that the money was never repaid...

Therefore, at the time of the shootings, the relatives had a good motive to want to put Jeremy in the frame, because they knew that Jeremy knew about the arrangement which had been made between his father (Ralph Bamber) and the relatives, and that Jeremy might raise merry hell that such monies were not included his his fathers estate, if it had got to the stage, where Jeremy stood to inherit - which as it turns out, it never got to that stage...

Bank records exist to prove that Ralph Bamber transferred a huge amount of money over to the relatives, to allow Ann, and Peter Eaton, to remain living on their farm, which as I understand it was due to be repossessed if a certain amount of monies were not forthcoming...

[Kaldin]

Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders - they stage managed the crime scene, and moved bodies, including Sheila's, to cover up serious mistakes during the operation inside whf that led to Sheila's death in the main bedroom...

Sheila Caffell need not have died inside the main bedroom at whf, but she did so because of very serious mistakes which were made by members of the raid team that forced its way into the farmhouse at around 7:30am. The police found two bodies downstairs upon entry into the premises, the body of one dead male, and (this is the mistake they made) the body of one dead female, which were reported as a murder and a suicide before 7:45am. This was not a case where the body of a dead male had been mistaken for that of the body of a dead female, which was not rectified until police actually got into the Kitchen - messages were sent out from the scene for the police surgeon and the coroners officer to attend in connection with two bodies, not one...

By the time these messages were being passed from the scene, if it had just been a case of someone mistakenly identifying the body of a dead female for that of a dead male, information would not have been passed from the scene for the police surgeon and the coroners officer to attend the scene in connection with two bodies, they would simply have been told to attend the scene in connection with the discovery of one body...

Similarly, before 7:45am, a message would not have been passed from the scene to the control room, informing them that two bodies had been found upon entry to the premises, one of which was a murder, and the other a suicide - if there had been a mix up where a dead male had mistakenly been identified as a dead female,  that one death could not be reported as a murder and a suicide, and so lets not beat about the bush, the police found two bodies downstairs at the scene, one of which was Ralph Bamber, and the other Sheila Caffell...

First things first.

You're saying that there's no way that the police found one body in the kitchen, and you're basing that on the police log?

The police log timed 7.38 says this:

Ref Firearms incident.

Following update

1 (one) deal male
1 (one) deal female found on entry of premises.

Request
1. SOC to attend
2. Ch Supt Divisional to attend (on way)
3. Divisional DCI attend
4. Police surgeon attend
5. Coroner's office informed only

http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber2.htm

This log was compiled at 7.41 by Ivor(?) Norman at Chelmsford, and the message was sent by radio from Car CAO7.

Nowhere does it say that the police surgeon and the coroner's office were asked to attend the scene in connection with two bodies. The sender of the message from car CAO7 simply asked for a police surgeon to attend and for the coroner's office to be informed. Of course they asked for a police surgeon. It makes no difference it if was one body or two. The presence of one body would be enough.

Where is the log which says that it was one murder and one suicide? Now that would be more interesting.

[Kaldin]

Robert Boutflour received inside information about nature of Essex police investigation from PC Robert Carr (Metropolitan police officer)

By the time Robert Boutflour went to speak to ACC Peter Simpson, at DHQ, on 6th SEptember 1985, he had been appraised as to what had actually taken place at the scene, involving the re-enactment by a second group of officers at the scene, between 9 and 9:22am, by a close associate of his, PC Robert Carr...

Robert Boutflour threatened to expose what Essex police had done, if ACC Simpson did not start a fresh investigation with a view to looking into whether or not Jeremy could have, and did kill the family? By this stage, Boutflour knew that Essex police had deceived the Coroners court regarding the circumstances of how Sheila had died in the bedroom...

From this point, onward, (6th September 1985) Essex police set out to frame Jeremy Bamber for the murders...

A new file (SC/786/85) was created and the DPP edited statements, and got witnesses to sign them later, as part of the general conspiracy to make out a case that Jeremy had stage managed Sheila's body in the bedroom, and that he was the killer...

From 6th September 1985, onward, the DPP assisted Essex police to maintain their cover regarding what they had done at the scene, which led to Sheila's death in the bedroom at about 8:30am. They created a second file (SC/786/85) and withheld the contents of the original file (SC/688/85), which they continue to do, until this very day...

It was 5th September when Robert Boutflour spoke to Simpson.

He didn't know at the time that he stood to gain if Jeremy was convicted, so why on earth would he want to frame Jeremy?

-------------------------------------------------

Yes he did know, that his family might benefit from the Bamber inheritance, by that stage, he had taken advice about it from a very early stage, as evidenced by witness statements he made to City of London Police...

He sought advice about the inheritance issue from two different sources, actually, according to what he told COLP, and he expected to have to pay for receiving that advice......

Well even if he did know early on, that makes him rather premature and grasping, but it doesn't mean he deliberately conspired to frame Jeremy.

[mike tesko]

Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders - they stage managed the crime scene, and moved bodies, including Sheila's, to cover up serious mistakes during the operation inside whf that led to Sheila's death in the main bedroom...

Sheila Caffell need not have died inside the main bedroom at whf, but she did so because of very serious mistakes which were made by members of the raid team that forced its way into the farmhouse at around 7:30am. The police found two bodies downstairs upon entry into the premises, the body of one dead male, and (this is the mistake they made) the body of one dead female, which were reported as a murder and a suicide before 7:45am. This was not a case where the body of a dead male had been mistaken for that of the body of a dead female, which was not rectified until police actually got into the Kitchen - messages were sent out from the scene for the police surgeon and the coroners officer to attend in connection with two bodies, not one...

By the time these messages were being passed from the scene, if it had just been a case of someone mistakenly identifying the body of a dead female for that of a dead male, information would not have been passed from the scene for the police surgeon and the coroners officer to attend the scene in connection with two bodies, they would simply have been told to attend the scene in connection with the discovery of one body...

Similarly, before 7:45am, a message would not have been passed from the scene to the control room, informing them that two bodies had been found upon entry to the premises, one of which was a murder, and the other a suicide - if there had been a mix up where a dead male had mistakenly been identified as a dead female,  that one death could not be reported as a murder and a suicide, and so lets not beat about the bush, the police found two bodies downstairs at the scene, one of which was Ralph Bamber, and the other Sheila Caffell...

First things first.

You're saying that there's no way that the police found one body in the kitchen, and you're basing that on the police log?

The police log timed 7.38 says this:

Ref Firearms incident.

Following update

1 (one) deal male
1 (one) deal female found on entry of premises.

Request
1. SOC to attend
2. Ch Supt Divisional to attend (on way)
3. Divisional DCI attend
4. Police surgeon attend
5. Coroner's office informed only

http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber2.htm

This log was compiled at 7.41 by Ivor(?) Norman at Chelmsford, and the message was sent by radio from Car CAO7.

Nowhere does it say that the police surgeon and the coroner's office were asked to attend the scene in connection with two bodies. The sender of the message from car CAO7 simply asked for a police surgeon to attend and for the coroner's office to be informed. Of course they asked for a police surgeon. It makes no difference it if was one body or two. The presence of one body would be enough.

Where is the log which says that it was one murder and one suicide? Now that would be more interesting.

--------------------------------------------------------------

You are referring to the wrong document - the one where it mentions two bodies, is actually timed at 7:48am, and says the following:- " will you call out your police surgeon to attend white house farm, Tolleshunt D'Arcy, to examine two bodies. Please reply with E. T. A. and name of doctor"...

PC Lincoln
Doctor Craig (police surgeon)
contacted DR Carr at home address who will try and get Dr Craig to telephone Witham police station.

08:06hrs from DR Craig confirming call - Details
passed - CD control and info room informed

ETA 5 - 10 minutes

[Kaldin]

You are referring to the wrong document - the one where it mentions two bodies, is actually timed at 7:48am, and says the following:- " will you call out your police surgeon to attend white house farm, Tolleshunt D'Arcy, to examine two bodies. Please reply with E. T. A. and name of doctor"...

PC Lincoln
Doctor Craig (police surgeon)
contacted DR Carr at home address who will try and get Dr Craig to telephone Witham police station.

08:06hrs from DR Craig confirming call - Details
passed - CD control and info room informed

ETA 5 - 10 minutes

That still doesn't mention one murder and one suicide.

Do you have a grab of that log?

[Kaldin]

Sometime in October 1985 I sought professional advice on the possible beneficiary of the Bamber estate in the event of Jeremy being unable to inherit. I was informed that it depended on the order of death and that in the event of being able to prove that June was the last to die my wife would be or could be a beneficiary. In the event of it being impossible to establish the order of death (as in a road traffic accident) it would be assumed that they had died in the order of seniority in which case the twins would have been the last to die, and the beneficiary would be their father Colin Caffell.


Subsequent conversations have led me to believe that Collin Caffell may not benefit because (page 2) the twins were under age. This would mean that Sheila was the youngest (due to her having no relatives) it would then pass to Neville and in turn to Anthony Pargeter (his nephew) and Jackie Wood (his Niece).

That says that Robert Boutflour made enquires some time in October, and that he subsequently had other conversations about it. I've seen nothing to suggest that he found out about the inheritance as early as August.

[mike tesko]

Sometime in October 1985 I sought professional advice on the possible beneficiary of the Bamber estate in the event of Jeremy being unable to inherit. I was informed that it depended on the order of death and that in the event of being able to prove that June was the last to die my wife would be or could be a beneficiary. In the event of it being impossible to establish the order of death (as in a road traffic accident) it would be assumed that they had died in the order of seniority in which case the twins would have been the last to die, and the beneficiary would be their father Colin Caffell.


Subsequent conversations have led me to believe that Collin Caffell may not benefit because (page 2) the twins were under age. This would mean that Sheila was the youngest (due to her having no relatives) it would then pass to Neville and in turn to Anthony Pargeter (his nephew) and Jackie Wood (his Niece).

That says that Robert Boutflour made enquires some time in October, and that he subsequently had other conversations about it. I've seen nothing to suggest that he found out about the inheritance as early as August.

------------------------------

Well, he did, and there are references to it during his COLP interviews in 1991...

[Kaldin]

Sometime in October 1985 I sought professional advice on the possible beneficiary of the Bamber estate in the event of Jeremy being unable to inherit. I was informed that it depended on the order of death and that in the event of being able to prove that June was the last to die my wife would be or could be a beneficiary. In the event of it being impossible to establish the order of death (as in a road traffic accident) it would be assumed that they had died in the order of seniority in which case the twins would have been the last to die, and the beneficiary would be their father Colin Caffell.


Subsequent conversations have led me to believe that Collin Caffell may not benefit because (page 2) the twins were under age. This would mean that Sheila was the youngest (due to her having no relatives) it would then pass to Neville and in turn to Anthony Pargeter (his nephew) and Jackie Wood (his Niece).

That says that Robert Boutflour made enquires some time in October, and that he subsequently had other conversations about it. I've seen nothing to suggest that he found out about the inheritance as early as August.

------------------------------

Well, he did, and there are references to it during his COLP interviews in 1991...

Even if he did know, that would mean he had an interest in seeing Jeremy convicted, but it doesn't mean that he knew that Jeremy hadn't done it or that he conspired to frame Jeremy. He thought jeremy had done it - he thought so right after the murders.

[mike tesko]

In any event, at the time of the deaths, The Boutflours owed a substantial amount of monies to Ralph Bambers estate, that he loaned to them, because they could not afford to pay off a debt to a university, and if the monies had not been paid, Ann and Peter Eaton, would have been evicted from their farm...

These monies were never repaid, nor included in the estate of Ralph Bamber...

So, this needs to be investigated by the police...

[Kaldin]

He knew Jeremy did not stage Sheila's body, because he knew the police did

Who says so? Where is the proof that he knew?

[mike tesko]

Jeremy - he has proof and intends to bring action against the family and the executor of his parents estate...

Police have copies of Ralph Bambers bank accounts, and the monies which were transferred at that time to help the relatives out, is recorded there, and there are records with the university...

Jeremy knew all about it, and Peter Eaton even mentioned something about it when he was interviewed by City of London Police, in 1991 - and so even COLP knew about it...

[Kaldin]

In any event, at the time of the deaths, The Boutflours owed a substantial amount of monies to Ralph Bambers estate, that he loaned to them, because they could not afford to pay off a debt to a university, and if the monies had not been paid, Ann and Peter Eaton, would have been evicted from their farm...

These monies were never repaid, nor included in the estate of Ralph Bamber...

So, this needs to be investigated by the police...

I would think that was a civil matter really. The loser in that would be Anthony Pargeter and co as things stand at the moment.

If you mean it was a motive for conspiring to pervert the course of justice that's a different matter, but the issue of the motive of the family to lie was looked into at the time.

[Kaldin]

Jeremy - he has proof and intends to bring action against the family and the executor of his parents estate...

He has proof that Sheila was in the kitchen when the police got in, and he has proof that Robert Boutflour knew that?

Even if he does have proof of that, Robert Boutflour did not inherit anything - that has to be remembered, so Jeremy would have to prove that Pamela Boutflour knew as well.