Bob - this is a difficult situation and more complex than it may seem. In order to understand how Mike felt driven to ban three members it is necessary to have seen the posts which led to that. To my knowledge Mike has only ever in the past banned one member and all at the time saw the need for that in view of what had been posted. The problem now is that the posts leading up to the bans yesterday have been deleted (which I understand) so I will have to give a brief overview.
Before that I need to say that I am very sorry that this situation has arisen. The forum will in my view be weakened by the loss of the three members. I do hope it is possible for them to return, but that is Mike's decision. Hartley and Vic were knowledgeable about the case and closely connected with the family, which enabled them to provides certain insights. It was to this forum's credit that they both chose to be active here rather than frequenting Lamberton's forum. They both had contempt for Lamberton and wanted nothing to do with him. They recognised that this was the effective forum for genuine debate. They presented the "guilty" position and challenged Mike vigorously.
Mike has never had any problem with being challenged on the points he makes. He has not censored debate. He argues vigorously but does not take things personally when people present opposing arguments. Hartley had a tendency, which I have commented on before, to goad Mike. He seemed to like getting a reaction from Mike, which he sometimes succeeded in doing. Vic in the past presented arguments without goading.
Yesterday both Hartley and Vidvic were active on the forum. It is no secret that they know each other well outside the forum. They seemed to egg each other on in taunting Mike. They went far beyond robust challenge, their posts descended to insults and mockery. In the exchanges Mike was provoked into responding and using bad language. It was clear that this is what Hartley and Vic wanted to do, presumably in order to show Mike in a bad light. Putting it bluntly, they were taking the piss out of Mike. This went far beyond anything they had ever posted before, and it was very unattractive.
When I saw the posts I was surprised and disappointed. With anyone else I would have deleted posts but I have always taken the view that Mike is well able to take care of himself and that I should leave it to him to take action as he sees fit. With hindsight I wish I had intervened yesterday. I should have deleted the offending posts as soon as they appeared and sent a PM to Hartley and Vic. I saw too late that Mike had finally had enough and banned them both and deleted the posts. Andrea then unwisely posted attacking Mike. I do not think she had seen the posts before they were deleted and it was clear that Mike was very angry. He is the owner of the forum and the source of most of the huge amount of information on it. He has provided a forum where all views are tolerated. He deserves to be treated with respect and he was not yesterday. I think I would have lost my temper in the same way. Andrea found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have respect for Hartley, Vic and Andrea. Hartley and Vic in particular have added value to the debate here through their knowledge of the case and their connections with the family. I have got to know Vic and I like him. He is a genuine and a decent bloke. I do not agree with him about the case but I respect his views and he respects mine. I do feel Vic let himself down yesterday and privately I suspect he would admit that. I suspect that there was an element of pack mentality when Hartley and Vic were both active on the forum at the same time.
As I have said it is entirely up to Mike what he wants to do now. It is his forum and he is entitled to be treated with respect and not goaded or insulted. I hope Mike feels able to lift the bans. In future I will intervene to stop a situation developing as it did yesterday.
I respect your views, NGB, but what happened yesterday went beyond individual goading or bullying, it was tantamount to concerted personal harassment of Mike by a gang of two.
Mike is in poor health and comes under considerable pressure as forum owner here, seven days a week, 52 weeks each year. We are all guilty at times of pressurising him to sift through his 50,000 documents and 'post this, Mike, post that Mike', or answer this, Mike, answer that.
Hartley and Vic are well aware of Mike's health issues, they seemed to me to be exploiting these yesterday with their tirade of highly offensive posts and personal attacks.
This is one of the rules from another site that Hartley belongs to:
"...Personal insults, unsubstantiated or inflammatory statements, and demeaning or vulgar language will not be tolerated and can result in being banned from the site. Members will be clearly warned when they are in violation. Bans can be temporary or permanent, based upon the severity of the situation. Re-admittance will be at the sole discretion of the Forum Manager.
Members who are readmitted and resume offensive behavior will be permanently banned. "Those rules are enforced and Hartley never seems to break the rules on that site. On all other sites the rules are enforced, yet here they the rules as good as ignored. Hartley has repeatedly breached our forum's rules, he has been banned and readmitted in the past, only to recommence his offensive posts. He has therefore clearly demonstrated that he is unwilling to abide by our rules.
Every time Mike and the mods turn a blind eye to Hartley's - and Vic's - breach of our rules a clear message goes out that Hartley and Vic are above the rules and are empowered to abuse at will.
No other site would tolerate Hartley and Vic's highly offensive abuse of their forum owner, mods and members. I do not believe we should tolerate this either. I believe Hartley has earned a permanent ban - though I would bet my shirt that Hartley will be readmitted to abuse others again.
