Author Topic: Itemised phone bills  (Read 27633 times)

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Offline tonyb

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Itemised phone bills
« on: March 04, 2012, 11:43:AM »
Events in Telecommunications History
1987
Manx Telecom Ltd came into operation as a wholly-owned subsidiary of British Telecom on 1 January, with a 20-year licence to operate the Isle of Man's telecommunications system.

Itemised billing was introduced on a trial basis in the City of London in January for six months. An £87million programme to provide itemised telephone bills for all customers was announced in December.

This is a section off the BT website. It's fairly clear, I think you will agree,prior to jan 1987 no residential lines had itemised billing. So the question is would a buisines? Without the technology of digital exchanges in place I would say No.
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Offline tonyb

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 11:48:AM »
City of London. That's normally a reference to the business community.....
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Hartley

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 11:51:AM »
Yes but how do you know the person writing that piece wasn't bribed by EP in case it was ever used to how that itemised phone bills did not exist for WHF in 1985. Or it could be a typo, it could have meant to say 1975.  :P

(sorry couldn't resist  :D )

Chochokeira

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 11:53:AM »
I posted the following elsewhere TonyB, but you must have missed it.

New Scientist May 1983

"New Telehone Bills detail every call"

Article re BT's intention of introducing itemised phone bills by 1984.

Picture of itemised phoned bill.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=z0Z3DxacC9IC&pg=PA448&lpg=PA448&dq=New+Scientist,+itemised+phone+bills+may+1983&source=bl&ots=O3Cqf1k_R4&sig=3eQwKzoAvtpQX8-mbkW07g7-hEc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3klTT-jIMYij8gOis_DwBQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


The article states that BT intended to purchase the PCs with the technology for this. If the technology was available in 1984, even if itemised billing was delayed, or not fully introduced by then, there would presumably have been the ability to provide the police with itemised bills.

Offline tonyb

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 11:55:AM »
Yes but how do you know the person writing that piece wasn't bribed by EP in case it was ever used to how that itemised phone bills did not exist for WHF in 1985. Or it could be a typo, it could have meant to say 1975.  :P

(sorry couldn't resist  :D )
I've never looked hard before but Choc put the New Scientist article up and I had to have a search round. New scientist was looking to the future,BT site is historical fact.
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Offline tonyb

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2012, 11:57:AM »
Intended Choc. Find the sie,you'll see they changed preferred supplier
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Hartley

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 12:03:PM »
I've never looked hard before but Choc put the New Scientist article up and I had to have a search round. New scientist was looking to the future,BT site is historical fact.

As you have said before in another thread, if there was any truth behind the existance of itemised phone records at WHF on the 7th August 1985 then at some point over the last 26 years the defence would have presented this as a ground of appeal. Holding a bill under PII would not hide the fact that a bill existed.

It's pure fantasy and not really worth my time in refuting. Imo.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 12:04:PM by Hartley »

Offline tonyb

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 12:03:PM »
What we have here if you follow me is a report of last Sunday's weather. Chocs seen Saturdays report far a sunny day,gone to the park and got wet. I look at Monday's newspaper and saw we had freak rainfall yesterday. In hind site then I'm glad I went to the pub...one is guessing what may happen,one tells you what did happen
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Hartley

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 12:05:PM »
What we have here if you follow me is a report of last Sunday's weather. Chocs seen Saturdays report far a sunny day,gone to the park and got wet. I look at Monday's newspaper and saw we had freak rainfall yesterday. In hind site then I'm glad I went to the pub...one is guessing what may happen,one tells you what did happen

Makes sense to me.

Chochokeira

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 12:08:PM »
As you have said before in another thread, if there was any truth behing the existance of itemised phone records at WHF on the 7th August 1985 then at some point over the last 26 years the defence would have presented this as a ground of appeal. Holding a bill under PII would not hide the fact that a bill existed.

It's pure fantasy and not really worth my time in refuting. Imo.


How long did it take EP to finally release the phone logs, Hartley? Some 19 years, I believe and then only when they were compelled to do so by a court order.

It's impossible, however, to obtain documents held under PII with a court order. So the defence have no means whatsoever of obtaining such records.

Chochokeira

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2012, 12:12:PM »
I've never looked hard before but Choc put the New Scientist article up and I had to have a search round. New scientist was looking to the future,BT site is historical fact.

If permanent itemised billing was introduced in the city during 1987 (though I'm sure I've read this occured in 1986)

1. When was the trial of this? 1985 to 1986?

2. When were the new PCs purchased, installed and tested?

Offline tonyb

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 12:16:PM »

How long did it take EP to finally release the phone logs, Hartley? Some 19 years, I believe and then only when they were compelled to do so by a court order.

It's impossible, however, to obtain documents held under PII with a court order. So the defence have no means whatsoever of obtaining such records.
Choc, I don't for one minute deny that important documents are being held under pii that may help the defence. However, itemised billing simply isn't one of them as they simply do not exist in the form you believe. Now,MT states that the telephones were being tapped. That will be the only way to itemise the calls, however they will not be bills. That theory is now dead in the water
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Chochokeira

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 12:20:PM »
What we have here if you follow me is a report of last Sunday's weather. Chocs seen Saturdays report far a sunny day,gone to the park and got wet. I look at Monday's newspaper and saw we had freak rainfall yesterday. In hind site then I'm glad I went to the pub...one is guessing what may happen,one tells you what did happen


Does what we have here, if you follow me,  amount to TonyB, reading of itemised billing being introduced in 1987 and leaping to the unsustainable conclusion that the PCs for this complex new phone system were purchased, installed, tested, debugged and and the new system of billing trialled all in the same week.  :D

Hartley

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 12:22:PM »

How long did it take EP to finally release the phone logs, Hartley? Some 19 years, I believe and then only when they were compelled to do so by a court order.

It's impossible, however, to obtain documents held under PII with a court order. So the defence have no means whatsoever of obtaining such records.

That's not true Keira, they have every means of obtaining PII withheld documents, there is a whole application process associated with such requests. There is no guarentee that an application would be successful however.

Another confusion is the age of the case, nowadays PII withheld evidence is documented and listed, therefore a defence making an application would be aware of what is withheld but would not be aware of the contents of a withheld document.

In this case the use of PII is grossly overused, there is not a handy list of documents being withheld, any reference to a withheld phone bill is in Mikes head (unless he can show us otherwise). The use of the phrase 'PII' in this instance is incorrect, what Mike is actually trying to say is that the phone bill which he belives exist is being criminally kept away from the defence, it has nothing to do with PII which did not exist in it's current form in 1985.

Offline tonyb

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Re: Itemised phone bills
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 12:22:PM »
If permanent itemised billing was introduced in the city during 1987 (though I'm sure I've read this occured in 1986)

1. When was the trial of this? 1985 to 1986?

2. When were the new PCs purchased, installed and tested?
Trailed for 6 months in the city of London from Jan 87
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