Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August

[curiousessex]

What were the sequence of telephone calls, in terms of a timeline, on the evening of 6th August and morning of 7th August 1985?

These would appear to be of particular importance, as prior to any telephone call being made from White House Farm to the "outside world" the knowledge of anything being untoward would have only been known to those who would have been inside White House Farm.

[Kaldin]

What were the sequence of telephone calls, in terms of a timeline, on the evening of 6th August and morning of 7th August 1985?

These would appear to be of particular importance, as prior to any telephone call being made from White House Farm to the "outside world" the knowledge of anything being untoward would have only been known to those who would have been inside White House Farm.

You mean general phone calls?

The farm secretary, Barbara Wilson, phoned Neville at about 9.30 pm, and said he was "short" with her.

Pamela Boutflour called her sister June at about 10 pm. She apparently spoke to Sheila first and said she was "quiet". Then she spoke to June. I'm not sure what they talked about. I've seen speculation that they talked about Sheila, but I don't know if that's a fact.

[curiousessex]

Sorry, I meant both general telephone calls and specific telephone calls.

The telephone calls identified are on the evening of 6th August 1985. I think Jeremy left White House Farm at approximately 9.30pm which would have been around the time of the call from the Farm Secretary, Barbara Wilson.

Were there not telephone calls from White House Farm during the early morning of 7th August 1985 (circa 3.00 am) and telephone calls from Jeremy to Julie Mugford around the same timeframe?

[Kaldin]

Sorry, I meant both general telephone calls and specific telephone calls.

The telephone calls identified are on the evening of 6th August 1985. I think Jeremy left White House Farm at approximately 9.30pm which would have been around the time of the call from the Farm Secretary, Barbara Wilson.

Were there not telephone calls from White House Farm during the early morning of 7th August 1985 (circa 3.00 am) and telephone calls from Jeremy to Julie Mugford around the same timeframe?

I read that Jeremy left about 10 pm.

Jeremy allegedly rang Julie Mugford around 9.50 on the evening of 6 August, but he was supposed to be at the farm at that time so I'm not sure about that.

He rang her again at some time in the early hours. There was some confusion about that though. Julie said it was between 3 and 3.30 am - she had to ring her flatmate to ask what time he had phoned. One of her flat mates said it was around 3.12 am or possibly 3.20, and she also said she kept her clock ten minutes fast. Another flatmate said it was between 2 and 3 am. The stories seemed to change a lot and vary between 3 and 3.30 - that's probably the closest anyone can get.

There was the alleged phone call to Jeremy from the farm. It's not clear when that was suppose to be received by Jeremy. He phoned the police at around 3.26 - probably a couple of minutes earlier. There are claims that he rang at 3.36, but that's in dispute as well.

 

[mike tesko]

Sorry, I meant both general telephone calls and specific telephone calls.

The telephone calls identified are on the evening of 6th August 1985. I think Jeremy left White House Farm at approximately 9.30pm which would have been around the time of the call from the Farm Secretary, Barbara Wilson.

Were there not telephone calls from White House Farm during the early morning of 7th August 1985 (circa 3.00 am) and telephone calls from Jeremy to Julie Mugford around the same timeframe?

I read that Jeremy left about 10 pm.

Jeremy allegedly rang Julie Mugford around 9.50 on the evening of 6 August, but he was supposed to be at the farm at that time so I'm not sure about that.

He rang her again at some time in the early hours. There was some confusion about that though. Julie said it was between 3 and 3.30 am - she had to ring her flatmate to ask what time he had phoned. One of her flat mates said it was around 3.12 am or possibly 3.20, and she also said she kept her clock ten minutes fast. Another flatmate said it was between 2 and 3 am. The stories seemed to change a lot and vary between 3 and 3.30 - that's probably the closest anyone can get.

There was the alleged phone call to Jeremy from the farm. It's not clear when that was suppose to be received by Jeremy. He phoned the police at around 3.26 - probably a couple of minutes earlier. There are claims that he rang at 3.36, but that's in dispute as well.

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Julie Mugfords first witness statement, clearly states that Jeremy called her at 3:30am, which was after Jeremy had received the call from his dad at about 3:25am. Ralph called the police at 3:26am, and used the words describing his daughters actions at the scene, including the fact that his daughter had got one on "My" guns. Later, when the nature of the investigation changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) into SC/786/85 (five murders) DS Jones, got Sheila to make a new statement saying that Jeremy called her at 3:15am, which helped to displace the time of Jeremy's call to Julie, to an earlier time before Ralph made his call to the police at 3:26am...

This was done, to try and suggest that Jeremy had phoned Julie, before the timing of the first call made to the police at 3:26am, whereas Jeremy actually made the call to Julie, at about 3:30am, which was after Ralph Called Jeremy at 3:25am, and after Ralph called the police at 3:26am - Jeremy's own call to the police was made at 3:36am, in which Jeremy informs the police that he received a call from his dad who informed him that his sister had got the gun and that she was going crazy...

The truth of the matter is, that Ralph called Jeremy at about 3:25am, and that the line was interrupted, and Jeremy kept trying to re-establish contact with his dad at the farm, but kept getting the engaged tone. In the mean time, Ralph called the police at 3:26am, which would help to explain why Jeremy was getting the engaged tone, and why the line went dead after his father imparted words to him alerting him to what was developing at the scene. Whilst Jeremy was trying to re-establish contact with his dad at whf, Ralph was busy talking to the police from 3:26am...

By 3:30am, Jeremy called Julie and told her that there was something wrong at the farm - but Mugford allegedly told Jeremy to go back to bed...

At 3:36am, Jeremy called the police , and at 3:45am, he was instructed by the police to go to whf and meet police officers, who had already been dispatched to the scene...

This is not speculation, these are hard facts, which can be backed up by evidence which the CCRC have got access to, and which no amount of speculation will or can alter...



...

[Kaldin]

Sorry but I don't believe that Neville called the police at all. I've explained why I think that, and I've even transcribed the police log.

I think it's possible that Jeremy called Julie at around 3.30 though - she and her flatmates were very vague about it all.

PC West did not mention getting two calls about the same incident. Don't you think he would have done?

[curiousessex]

I was writing the following post before receiving a post from Mike and the message "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."

"So, if I understand correctly, Jeremy rang Julie at circa 9.50 pm on the evening of 6th August and then again at between circa 3.00 and 3.30 am on the morning of the 7th August.

Is there not some "discovered" evidence which referes to a Police log which details "Daughter gone beserk" for a telephone call to the Police from a Neville Bamber at White House Farm timed at 3.26 am on 7th August. I beleive this evidence was not available at the original trial.

However, I think, the evidence used in the original trial was a Police log which details / refers to a telephone call received from Jeremy, in Goldhanger, at 3.36 am. This Police log references a telephone call which the Police had received from Jeremy. The log mentions Jeremy reporting a telephone call that Jeremy had received from Neville Bamber who was at White House Farm and that Neville Bamber had mentioned in the telephone call to Jeremy that Sheila had got hold of a gun or something like that.

Is it known when Neville Bamber made the telephone call from White House Farm to Jeremy in Goldhanger?

Was the call made between 3.26 am and 3.36 am when the calls had been made to the Police by both Neville and Jeremy respectively?

Was the call made to Jeremy before 3.26 am?"

So the answer to the question above is Neville Bamber made the telephone call from White House Farm to Jeremy in Goldhanger at circa 3.25 am or is the timing of 3.25 am a precise fact?

[mike tesko]

Sorry but I don't believe that Neville called the police at all. I've explained why I think that, and I've even transcribed the police log.

I think it's possible that Jeremy called Julie at around 3.30 though - she and her flatmates were very vague about it all.

PC West did not mention getting two calls about the same incident. Don't you think he would have done?

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Ok, then we will approach it from  a different perspective, why did the police make two different records, about the same phone call, referring to two different times, and including details which make mention of Mr Bambers "daughter" getting hold of one of "my" guns,  whilst Jeremy's call refers to his "sister" getting hold of "the" gun?

Why is there "a difference in the age of the daughter", or "the sister", in both accounts?

Clearly, these two different police records cannot relate to the same phone call...

[Kaldin]

I was writing the following post before receiving a post from Mike and the message "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."

"So, if I understand correctly, Jeremy rang Julie at circa 9.50 pm on the evening of 6th August and then again at between circa 3.00 and 3.30 am on the morning of the 7th August.

Is there not some "discovered" evidence which referes to a Police log which details "Daughter gone beserk" for a telephone call to the Police from a Neville Bamber at White House Farm timed at 3.26 am on 7th August. I beleive this evidence was not available at the original trial.

However, I think, the evidence used in the original trial was a Police log which details / refers to a telephone call received from Jeremy, in Goldhanger, at 3.36 am. This Police log references a telephone call which the Police had received from Jeremy. The log mentions Jeremy reporting a telephone call that Jeremy had received from Neville Bamber who was at White House Farm and that Neville Bamber had mentioned in the telephone call to Jeremy that Sheila had got hold of a gun or something like that.

Is it known when Neville Bamber made the telephone call from White House Farm to Jeremy in Goldhanger?

Was the call made between 3.26 am and 3.36 am when the calls had been made to the Police by both Neville and Jeremy respectively?

Was the call made to Jeremy before 3.26 am?"

So the answer to the question above is Neville Bamber made the telephone call from White House Farm to Jeremy in Goldhanger at circa 3.25 am or is the timing of 3.25 am a precise fact?

The call from Jeremy to PC West was discussed at the trial, and it was established that PC West had probably written the time down wrongly. I don't know if the logs written by PC West and Malcolm Bonnet were there in the court. The press has implied that at least one of them wasn't but who knows?

The log which Malcolm Bonnet wrote was timed at 3.26 but that's when he received the call from PC West. I think Jeremy probably rang PC West at around 3.24 or so. He couldn't ring the police straight after Neville had phoned him because he couldn't get a dialling tone, and then he tried to ring the farm back.

Assuming that Jeremy rang the police as soon as he could, I think the call from Neville to Jeremy was probably around 3.20, but I'm only guessing.

If Jeremy rang Julie in between getting the call from Neville and calling the police, of course that puts the call from Neville to Jeremy a bit earlier.

[curiousessex]

Was there not some controversy in relation to Jeremy ringing Chelmsford Police Station as opposed to dialling 999.

Did the Police receive the telphone calls from both Jeremy and Neville at the same location i.e. Chelmsford Police Station?

Did Neville Bamber ring 999 and Jeremy ring Chelmsford Police Station in which case, surely, it is consistent that there would be two logs for two independent telephone calls with different times of calls?

[Kaldin]

Sorry but I don't believe that Neville called the police at all. I've explained why I think that, and I've even transcribed the police log.

I think it's possible that Jeremy called Julie at around 3.30 though - she and her flatmates were very vague about it all.

PC West did not mention getting two calls about the same incident. Don't you think he would have done?

-----------------------------------------

Ok, then we will approach it from  a different perspective, why did the police make two different records, about the same phone call, referring to two different times, and including details which make mention of Mr Bambers "daughter" getting hold of one of "my" guns,  whilst Jeremy's call refers to his "sister" getting hold of "the" gun?

Why is there "a difference in the age of the daughter", or "the sister", in both accounts?

Clearly, these two different police records cannot relate to the same phone call...

One log was written by PC West, and the other was written by Malcolm Bonnet. PC West took the call from Jeremy, and then he contacted Malcolm Bonnet so action could be taken. You have to remember that Jeremy was talking about his sister but he was also quoting his father, and he probably told PC West that Sheila was Neville's daughter - hence the interchangeable descriptions. Try to imagine a police officer trying to listen and also making notes about what he said at the same time. Then try to imagine Malcolm Bonnet doing the same when he was speaking to PC West. No wonder there were slight differences.

You really have to explain that line at the end of the 3.26 call where Malcolm Bonnet writes down that the message was passed on by Mr Bamber's son. You keep ignoring that bit.

[Kaldin]

Was there not some controversy in relation to Jeremy ringing Chelmsford Police Station as opposed to dialling 999.

Did the Police receive the telphone calls from both Jeremy and Neville at the same location i.e. Chelmsford Police Station?

Did Neville Bamber ring 999 and Jeremy ring Chelmsford Police Station in which case, surely, it is consistent that there would be two logs for two independent telephone calls with different times of calls?

Yes. He was asked why he didn't call 999 but he couldn't really explain. He just said he didn't think it would be any quicker or something.

Both the logs which in the public domain relate to a call made to Chelmsford police station - it's just that they were written by two different people. PC West took the call in one part of the police station, and he called Malcolm Bonnet in the information room or whatever it's called. Both of them made logs.

[curiousessex]

So given the reply.....

"Yes. He was asked why he didn't call 999 but he couldn't really explain. He just said he didn't think it would be any quicker or something.

Both the logs which in the public domain relate to a call made to Chelmsford police station - it's just that they were written by two different people. PC West took the call in one part of the police station, and he called Malcolm Bonnet in the information room or whatever it's called. Both of them made logs."

Is it a fact that "both" calls were documented at Chelmsford Police Station?

If so then "both" calls where made independently by both Neville Bamber and Jeremy direct to Chelmsford Police Station as opposed to either party dialling 999?

[Kaldin]

So given the reply.....

"Yes. He was asked why he didn't call 999 but he couldn't really explain. He just said he didn't think it would be any quicker or something.

Both the logs which in the public domain relate to a call made to Chelmsford police station - it's just that they were written by two different people. PC West took the call in one part of the police station, and he called Malcolm Bonnet in the information room or whatever it's called. Both of them made logs."

Is it a fact that "both" calls were documented at Chelmsford Police Station?

If so then "both" calls where made independently by both Neville Bamber and Jeremy direct to Chelmsford Police Station as opposed to either party dialling 999?

Only one call was taken at Chelmsford police station - the one recorded by PC West, and then he phoned Malcolm Bonnet in the information room who logged what PC West told him. There is no evidence that PC West received two calls - one from Jeremy and one from Neville. Until I see evidence of a second log made by PC West, I will think that there was only one call - the one from Jeremy.

There is no record of a 999 call.

[mike tesko]

I was writing the following post before receiving a post from Mike and the message "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."

"So, if I understand correctly, Jeremy rang Julie at circa 9.50 pm on the evening of 6th August and then again at between circa 3.00 and 3.30 am on the morning of the 7th August.

Is there not some "discovered" evidence which referes to a Police log which details "Daughter gone beserk" for a telephone call to the Police from a Neville Bamber at White House Farm timed at 3.26 am on 7th August. I beleive this evidence was not available at the original trial.

However, I think, the evidence used in the original trial was a Police log which details / refers to a telephone call received from Jeremy, in Goldhanger, at 3.36 am. This Police log references a telephone call which the Police had received from Jeremy. The log mentions Jeremy reporting a telephone call that Jeremy had received from Neville Bamber who was at White House Farm and that Neville Bamber had mentioned in the telephone call to Jeremy that Sheila had got hold of a gun or something like that.

Is it known when Neville Bamber made the telephone call from White House Farm to Jeremy in Goldhanger?

Was the call made between 3.26 am and 3.36 am when the calls had been made to the Police by both Neville and Jeremy respectively?

Was the call made to Jeremy before 3.26 am?"

So the answer to the question above is Neville Bamber made the telephone call from White House Farm to Jeremy in Goldhanger at circa 3.25 am or is the timing of 3.25 am a precise fact?

The call from Jeremy to PC West was discussed at the trial, and it was established that PC West had probably written the time down wrongly. I don't know if the logs written by PC West and Malcolm Bonnet were there in the court. The press has implied that at least one of them wasn't but who knows?

The log which Malcolm Bonnet wrote was timed at 3.26 but that's when he received the call from PC West. I think Jeremy probably rang PC West at around 3.24 or so. He couldn't ring the police straight after Neville had phoned him because he couldn't get a dialling tone, and then he tried to ring the farm back.

Assuming that Jeremy rang the police as soon as he could, I think the call from Neville to Jeremy was probably around 3.20, but I'm only guessing.

If Jeremy rang Julie in between getting the call from Neville and calling the police, of course that puts the call from Neville to Jeremy a bit earlier.

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I do not for one moment believe that the clock in the control room at police head quarters was ten minutes fast, or slow, or vice versa - This is just an excuse to try and marry both calls as being one and the same, it does not explain or go any way towards explaining, the different references to Daughter and sister, and My gun, and the gun, and the age differences in both accounts, or the fact that in one is the telephone number of whf, and in the other the telephone number of Jeremy's cottage, 9 Head street, Goldhanger...

The claim that the control room clock was ten minutes fast does not deal with the very serious discrepancies involved between both of the records relating to these two differently timed telephone calls, one from Ralph Bamber (3:26am), and the other from Jeremy (3:36am)...

If the control room clock was ten minutes fast, at what time did the occupants of CA07, CA06, and the other police vehicles, arrive at whf?