Gun tests in Arizona

[Roch]

Could there not be an argument that the photos fall within a batch not recognised to exist and therefore not covered by PII?  Has the CCRC not stated that it has disclosed all the photos already?  These other alleged photos would therefore be 'extra' photos.

[Aunt Agatha]

Exactly the kind of debate that is needed her Curious.....I enjoy reading your logical posts.

And for exactly the reasons you described, the fallout being beyond my own comprehension yet, I believe the CCRC are going to do EVERYTHING within their power to ensure Jeremy does not see the light of day.

The repercussions far outweigh the crime.

[Aunt Agatha]

God only know's what Ewen is going to do with the brown envelope he has received......

Seek advice from high is my first guess.........

And another cover-up begins!

Talk about the ground swallowing him up.......

[Roch]

He said the envelope contained 'copies'.  If I was Z, I wouldn't be climbing any step ladders at home for a while.

[curiousessex]

He said the envelope contained 'copies'.  If I was Z, I wouldn't be climbing any step ladders at home for a while.

If I was 'Z' I would have made arrangements to anonymously get a copy of the alleged photograph to Simon McKay whilst also making some back up copies.

I certainly would not risk exposing myself on the perceived 'enemy' CCTV system whilst having it publicly stated the day I was actually on the perceived 'enemy' premises.

[Roch]

If I was 'Z' I would have made arrangements to anonymously get a copy of the alleged photograph to Simon McKay whilst also making some back up copies.

I certainly would not risk exposing myself on the perceived 'enemy' CCTV system whilst having it publicly stated the day I was actually on the perceived 'enemy' premises.

He seems to respect the proper channels?

[Newbury1]

Exactly the kind of debate that is needed her Curious.....I enjoy reading your logical posts.

And for exactly the reasons you described, the fallout being beyond my own comprehension yet, I believe the CCRC are going to do EVERYTHING within their power to ensure Jeremy does not see the light of day.

The repercussions far outweigh the crime.

Good, yet disturbing strap line!

[Newbury1]

He seems to respect the proper channels?

If one is trying to free an innocent person from prison, one needs to beat the system. Using "proper channels" seems weak!

I would give the original info. to JB's legal team (keep a copy for myself) and present copies to the CCRC with a note from JB's legal team telling them where the originals are; and if the CCRC did nothing the media would get to know - that would rock the CCRC's boat!

This is why I am sceptical about all this Z subterfuge and damming photo's etc. imo it does not make sense!

[grahameb]

1) Use of .22 rifle and 25 shots (non missed)
2) Reloading gun - not a frenzied attack imo
3) The overpowering of Nevill
4) Is JB lying over father's phone call, and no concrete proof Nevill called police!
5) Inheritance?

Hi Nick. These of course a good reasons for doubting Jeremy's innocence. But:
(2) Reloading the gun - not a frenzied attack.
Unfortunately there is no way of gauging these things? Ralph looked as if he was attacked in a frenzied way. And
(3) it has been mentioned Ralph may have been layed into after he was shot? The broken rifle butt is an indication of this. Mentally ill people can appear very cool and calculating. This thing looks to me as if it had been carefully prepared? one indication of this is Sheila's bag and other stuff on her bed. So maybe she didn't go to bed that night but rather waited til everyone was asleep so as not to encounter much opposition?
(5) I don't think that inheritance was a factor in this crime as it has been mentioned before Jeremy didn't want for anything and was quite comfortably off with his little cottage and income from the caravan park.
(4) The only thing I can't cross off the list is that we only have Jeremy's word that his father phoned him? But then again why would he phone the police himself? This to my mind (if he was guilty) wouldn't have been the wisest thing for him to do. Because far from drawing attention away from himself it would obviously make him the focus of attention? Although as I said before your points are good questions and need an answer? The telephone call and the fact that Jeremy told police that his father phoned him is a pivotal point. Did he lie? If he did then there is every chance he knew what was happening that night and this makes him guilty by default.

[curiousessex]

Curious
Could you put. % on it

Nick on you list of things making JB guilty could we knock out of the equation overpowering of Neville as if he had been shot first wouldn't he have been very easy to overpower


I just had this sad thought if Sheila was attacking Neville they must have had such good times together in the past as a little girl and her dad and Neville seemed a nice guy. I was thinking if Neville was looking at her when she shot him, it's absolutely tragic.
Poor Neville and Sheila

Jackie

As requested here are my percentages with reasons added as requested.

Was Jeremy involved / commit the crime. My gut feeling probably lies between 75% and 80%. Mainly because of the timing and sequence of telephone calls on the morning of 7th August 1985 plus other coincidences and inconsistency in my opinion. This excludes the silencer evidence.

Is Jeremy's conviction secure on the basis of the original trial. My gut feeling probably lies around 40%. Mainly because of the silencer evidence and my personal opinion regarding it be admitted as evidence.

Do I think the CCRC will refer. My gut feeling probably lies at around 35%. Mainly because, in my opinion, there are probably other factors at play given the unique case history and the embarassment if has already caused with a failed initial investigation. To go back on the verdict now, given all the issues surrounding the case, would be a bigger embarassment for the Justice System.


Additionally, in my opinion, if the alleged photograph of Sheila with a single gunshot wound to her neck whilst still being on the bed is published.........

CCRC referral - 100%.
Court of Appeal to quash the conviction - 100%.

Subsequent ramifications and fall out - Substantial

[Newbury1]

Nick I am lost in the gun side of things I generally go along with Ngb because he is impartial.
The inheritance I don't agree with. JB was always in line for it and he was jogging along nicely in his life

The only thing which I don't understand clearly are the phone calls. Maybe something has been witheld

My feeling is that I no I would definitely have been not guilty on the verdict because of the mugford now deal

There was too much information witheld for a guilty verdict without reasonable doubt

Reasonable doubt was all over this case

Hi Jackie,

Thanks for your answer - now mine.

Points for Guilty

1) Use of .22 rifle and 25 shots (non missed)

This point is subjective and not conclusive; but I believe I will always hold the opinion this was far too clinical for SC to have done it. I have discussed with ngb that it is my opinion the final death shots were more execution style than frenzied, and although ngb disagreed we agreed to disagree.

2) Reloading gun - not a frenzied attack imo

I have difficulty in believing SC, in a moment of madness (unhinged), could efficiently reload the gun twice in order to kill them all.

3) The overpowering of Nevill

Without knowing categorically the sequence of shots, if we believe (as suggested by some) that in order for SC to overcome Neville he had to be injured then let's consider what may have been the first shots (which in my opinion were 5, 6, 7 & 8 - see diagram below) two to the chin (5 & 6), one very high on the shoulder (7) and one through his left arm (.

I am no medical expert, but these wounds, when fighting for your life, would not incapacitate Nevill (a 6' 4" farmer in good physical health) enough to stop him dealing with SC imo

4) Is JB lying over father's phone call, and no concrete proof Nevill called police?

We all know there is no conclusive evidence to support any of this. There are significant problems with the whole phone calls scenario.

5) Inheritance?

A weak point, and one I am prepared to concede on the basis that JB was leading a pretty good life and I do find it difficult to believe anyone can blow away their whole family, and hope to get away with it, for any amount of money (but that could just be me being naive!) 

Please let me know if you wish me to clarify any of the above.

[curiousessex]

He seems to respect the proper channels?

In my opinion a very weak justification....... If 'Z' respected the proper channels and associated due process 'Z' would not even have a copy of the alleged photograph.

[Newbury1]

Hi Nick. These of course a good reasons for doubting Jeremy's innocence. But:
(2) Reloading the gun - not a frenzied attack.
Unfortunately there is no way of gauging these things? Ralph looked as if he was attacked in a frenzied way. And
(3) it has been mentioned Ralph may have been layed into after he was shot? The broken rifle butt is an indication of this. Mentally ill people can appear very cool and calculating. This thing looks to me as if it had been carefully prepared? one indication of this is Sheila's bag and other stuff on her bed. So maybe she didn't go to bed that night but rather waited til everyone was asleep so as not to encounter much opposition?
(5) I don't think that inheritance was a factor in this crime as it has been mentioned before Jeremy didn't want for anything and was quite comfortably off with his little cottage and income from the caravan park.
(4) The only thing I can't cross off the list is that we only have Jeremy's word that his father phoned him? But then again why would he phone the police himself? This to my mind (if he was guilty) wouldn't have been the wisest thing for him to do. Because far from drawing attention away from himself it would obviously make him the focus of attention? Although as I said before your points are good questions and need an answer? The telephone call and the fact that Jeremy told police that his father phoned him is a pivotal point. Did he lie? If he did then there is every chance he knew what was happening that night and this makes him guilty by default.

Hi Grahame, I have answered my points to Jackie, but will read through your post to see if I need to add any more.

By the way the number 8 with a bracket following seems to come up as - I'm not trying to be cool 

[grahameb]

Hi Grahame, I have answered my points to Jackie, but will read through your post to see if I need to add any more.

By the way the number 8 with a bracket following seems to come up as - I'm not trying to be cool 

Seems I missed out number 1?