Crime scene video - taken as part of training exercise - bodies insitu...

[guest29835]

The TFG were shown a montage of crime scene images, which resulted in 'real concerns' being raised to their superiors, regarding the movement of gun / head / bible. One had no recollection of a rifle, which is extraordinary.  The defence didn't know about this until many years post conviction.

Roch, see my post above (I think our posts must have been submitted simultaneously).  Do you know how Essex Police would have produced such a montage technologically back in the 1980s?

[ngb1066]

How would they have done that, do you think?  Would they have used a hi-res film scanner and then recorded the output?

I ask because there may be some forensic significance to it.  If you're scanning negatives, then you're creating an additional forensic trail with scans of each negative produced and presumably stored somewhere.

I really am not sure about this.  The way it was explained to me was that there was a video made showing a sequence of the still photographic prints (not negatives) and it was used in a debriefing exercise for police officers involved.  It does seem surprising to me and it may or may not be true but it is not what would happen today.

What is clear and is very suspicious is that many negatives were destroyed.  The reasons given for that are not credible.  Whatever your view on the case there is a lot which is very unsatisfactory.

[Roch]

Roch, see my post above (I think our posts must have been submitted simultaneously).  Do you know how Essex Police would have produced such a montage technologically back in the 1980s?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer QC.  But I do know they were unhappy 'as a team' regarding the anomalies.  I think they spoke with Montgomery, DCI Jones and maybe one other detective.  Something happened in that farmhouse, between the TFG leaving the crime scene and Bird's crime scene photography commencing.  There was quite a gap as well. Crime scene photography commenced about 10am.

[ngb1066]

I'm afraid I don't know the answer QC.  But I do know they were unhappy 'as a team' regarding the anomalies.  I think they spoke with Montgomery, DCI Jones and maybe one other detective.  Something happened in that farmhouse, between the TFG leaving the crime scene and Bird's crime scene photography commencing.  There was quite a gap as well. Crime scene photography commenced about 10am.

I agree Roch.  It is absolutely beyond doubt that some police officers involved felt very uncomfortable.  The crime scene was certainly re-staged, for whatever reason.

[guest29835]

I agree Roch.  It is absolutely beyond doubt that some police officers involved felt very uncomfortable.  The crime scene was certainly re-staged, for whatever reason.

Here is a relevant question I have asked before and didn't receive an answer, so it may not be known, but let me re-try:

Does anybody here know if the bed in the master bedroom was hard or springy? 

What brand/make of bed was it?

What was the mattress made of?

Was it wooden or metal framed?

How high was it off the floor?

The hard/springy question is particularly important, I think, to the question of police staging the scene.

I think the police did stage Sheila's body in the master bedroom, but for innocent reasons.  To be precise, they re-staged it.  One possibility is that, rightly or wrongly, the raid group officers found Sheila on the bed and they believed she was still breathing and/or conscious and went to her assistance.  This caused the body to be moved on to the floor.  (It may also have resulted in an accidental discharge of the rifle).

It sounds far-fetched, but in reality it's not because you would only need maybe two or three officers to know and they could, for one reason or another, keep it to themselves.  Possibly the initial reason may have been a mistake or misunderstanding in which the information 'slipped through the cracks' because they simply weren't asked.  It was just assumed by the detectives that the bodies were positioned as found.

[Adam]

I agree Roch.  It is absolutely beyond doubt that some police officers involved felt very uncomfortable.  The crime scene was certainly re-staged, for whatever reason.

What was re staged?

[guest29835]

What was re staged?

The position Sheila is found in, with the position of the right arm and the left leg, resembles how somebody would look had they been untangled from the first aid recovery position.

[Adam]

The position Sheila is found in, with the position of the right arm and the left leg, resembles how somebody would look had they been untangled from the first aid recovery position.

Of course.

The police must have pulled Sheila's legs after there accidental second shot as well.

[guest29835]

Of course.

The police must have pulled Sheila's legs after there accidental second shot as well.

The police shot Sheila.

Thanks Adam.

[Adam]

The police shot Sheila.

Thanks Adam.

Do you agree with the CT. Who say Sheila was in the kitchen when the police entered WHF.

[guest29835]

Do you agree with the CT. Who say Sheila was in the kitchen when the police entered WHF.

You mean just before they entered?

I don't know.  I'm open-minded about everything.  My first reaction to it was that it's far-fetched, so I dismissed it in my own mind, but as I learn more about the case, I am having to re-consider basic things.

The main problem, as I see it, with her in the kitchen is that, when eventually found, she would have to have Nevill and June's blood on her and her hands and feet could not be 'clean' (within the parameters of the prosecution evidence).  For that reason, her in the kitchen when the raid group are about to enter doesn't really fit the evidence.

[Adam]

You mean just before they entered?

I don't know.  I'm open-minded about everything.  My first reaction to it was that it's far-fetched, so I dismissed it in my own mind, but as I learn more about the case, I am having to re-consider basic things.

The main problem, as I see it, with her in the kitchen is that, when eventually found, she would have to have Nevill and June's blood on her and her hands and feet could not be 'clean' (within the parameters of the prosecution evidence).  For that reason, her in the kitchen when the raid group are about to enter doesn't really fit the evidence.

Thag is a good point. If Sheila had spent 4 hours walking around WHF between Nevill's call & the police entering, there is more chance of her feet being covered in blood.

No one has ever said why Sheila would keep herself alive for another 4 hours after such a brutal massacre of the other four 

[guest29835]

Thag is a good point. If Sheila had spent 4 hours walking around WHF between Nevill's call & the police entering, there is more chance of her feet being covered in blood.

No one has ever said why Sheila would keep herself alive for another 4 hours after such a brutal massacre of the other four

To be fair, that part of it is a bit more plausible because, as a schizophrenic, she may have been in the habit of wandering aimlessly around the house and maybe in the farm yard, as if in a trance, and this could have gone on for several hours.  One thing I have wondered about is if that used to happen, but she was not diagnosed with schizophrenia until after she had reached her teens, married and left the family home, and I've not seen it mentioned in accounts of visits there. 

In any event, if - I only say, 'if' - she's just shot her entire family, then who knows what mental state should would have been in?  As Dr. Bradley said at trial: The ordinary canons of logic do not apply in discussions about Sheila.

[Adam]

To be fair, that part of it is a bit more plausible because, as a schizophrenic, she may have been in the habit of wandering aimlessly around the house and maybe in the farm yard, as if in a trance, and this could have gone on for several hours.  One thing I have wondered about is if that used to happen, but she was not diagnosed with schizophrenia until after she had reached her teens, married and left the family home, and I've not seen it mentioned in accounts of visits there. 

In any event, if - I only say, 'if' - she's just shot her entire family, then who knows what mental state should would have been in?  As Dr. Bradley said at trial: The ordinary canons of logic do not apply in discussions about Sheila.

One minute in a murderous rage. The next wandering around in a trance.

Surprised she had time to read the bible.

[guest29835]

One minute in a murderous rage. The next wandering around in a trance.

Surprised she had time to read the bible.

Maybe she was carrying the Bible round with her?

Remember she needed time for a shower too.  She's a busy gal.

By the way, I'm surprised you've not put me forward for the CT on the basis of my Crispy theory.  You've hurt my feelings, Adam.