Suspicious death of DCI Jones - motives for murder?

[mike tesko]

What we have at this point then, are two different identical looking silencers at the lab' - one which had been there from 30th August 1985, and a second one sent there on 20th September 1985...

[mike tesko]

How could both silencers be the one which the relatives found inside the gun cupboard on 10th August 1985?

[mike tesko]

How could both silencers be the one which the relatives found inside the gun cupboard on 10th August 1985?

How could both silencers have Sheila's blood found inside it in the form of the flake...

[mike tesko]

How could both silencers have Sheila's blood found inside it in the form of the flake...

How could both of these identical silencers have paint ingrained into the same areas upon them?

[mike tesko]

Why would junior officers be doing things with the silencer behind DCI 'Taff' Jones back, if the official version of events is to be believed? Surely, DS 'Stan' Jones, and PI 'Bob' Miller, and DI 'Ron' Cook, would not be sending a silencer to the lab' on 13th august 1985, and performing all manner of tests and examinations upon a silencer without informing the head of the investigation? Remember, the relatives were not exactly flavour of the month in the mind of 'Taff' Jones when he was head of the investigation, so I doubt very much that the official version of events is true or the only version of events - it is much more likely that there existed two identical looking silencers which have for one reason or another, become merged into one and the same...

[ngb1066]

The points Mike has made about the silencer are very sound points and they go to the heart of this case.  Although it is complex and difficult to follow at times, I urge forum members to take the time to read Mike's posts on this subject carefully and follow the logic of his arguments.

There is confirmation that the former Essex Police officer "David" exists and he has given an account exactly as Mike describes.

 

[Newbury1]

I will be posting a copy of the document which confirms the existence of `Taff' Jones report on the silencer and scenes of crime later today. It is imperative that Jeremy's legal team obtain a copy of this as soon as possible, since the contents of this report are capable of seriously undermining the silencer evidence...

I appreciate Mike may be busy, but it would be be interesting to see the document Mike has referred to, and said he would post yesterday!

[ngb1066]

I appreciate Mike may be busy, but it would be be interesting to see the document Mike has referred to, and said he would post yesterday!

Mike initially said he would post it, but then very sensibly asked whether it should be sent to Simon McKay rather than be posted on the forum.  Mike agreed to send it to me, which he did as promised yesterday evening.  I do not see any harm in Mike posting the document here.   

[Newbury1]

The points Mike has made about the silencer are very sound points and they go to the heart of this case.  Although it is complex and difficult to follow at times, I urge forum members to take the time to read Mike's posts on this subject carefully and follow the logic of his arguments.

There is confirmation that the former Essex Police officer "David" exists and he has given an account exactly as Mike describes.

ngb - the silencer issue is something I believe is an issue. The Sutherst report in relation to the scratch marks upon the Aga surround (or not at the time) support Mike's in depth analysis.

Was the silencer ever used!

However, and I think you know my take on this, was an non silencered gun used by SC or JB?

SC would not need to fit a silencer - OK, but nor would JB. I believe we have established the gun rapport is not loud and a silencer used on the rifle would be cumbersome. Looking at the photos of the rifle with a silencer fitted it looks very unwieldy.

The silencer story I believe may have been manufactured and the blood flake doctored, but done to convince the court that JB did it, as EP came to believe JB did do it and the prosecution needed further "evidence" to clinch it (and just for clarification fabricating evidence, even for ncc, is not something I support or believe in)

My concern is, and I am sure it's been covered before, but how is JB' legal team approaching this subject, indeed are they pursuing this line at all.

Has the silencer issue been covered in previous appeals or is there new stuff?

If it been used before won't it be rejected again?

[ngb1066]

ngb - the silencer issue is something I believe is an issue. The Sutherst report in relation to the scratch marks upon the Aga surround (or not at the time) support Mike's in depth analysis.

Was the silencer ever used!

However, and I think you know my take on this, was an non silencered gun used by SC or JB?

SC would not need to fit a silencer - OK, but nor would JB. I believe we have established the gun rapport is not loud and a silencer used on the rifle would be cumbersome. Looking at the photos of the rifle with a silencer fitted it looks very unwieldy.

The silencer story I believe may have been manufactured and the blood flake doctored, but done to convince the court that JB did it, as EP came to believe JB did do it and the prosecution needed further "evidence" to clinch it (and just for clarification fabricating evidence, even for ncc, is not something I support or believe in)

My concern is, and I am sure it's been covered before, but how is JB' legal team approaching this subject, indeed are they pursuing this line at all.

Has the silencer issue been covered in previous appeals or is there new stuff?

If it been used before won't it be rejected again?

Nick - you make some very good points. 

JB's legal team are certainly pursuing the silencer issue.  There is new material which has not been presented before.

[Newbury1]

As the poor twins were shot lying down in bed, has it been recorded what angle the shots were made at?

The twins were not moved in anyway and therefore the position they were in and the angle of the head shots could be significant.

Could the possible height of the murderer be established this way at all?

This of course applies to all possible scenarios

SC with or without silencer fitted / JB with or without silencer fitted.

Apologies for the mental pictures created by the next bit.

I have looked at the forum diagrams and Daniel had 5 shots to the back of his head and Nicholas had 3 shots to the face. Has it ever been established where the killer stood in the room and how the shots were dispatched i.e. the killer standing betwen the twin beds shooting one and then turning around and shooting the other, and I assume they were shot in that part of the body that simply faced the killer?

Were some of these shots contact shots and if so did any of the boys blood appear on or in the silencer - I don't think so?

[ngb1066]

As the poor twins were shot lying down in bed, has it been recorded what angle the shots were made at?

The twins were not moved in anyway and therefore the position they were in and the angle of the head shots could be significant.

Could the possible height of the murderer be established this way at all?

This of course applies to all possible scenarios

SC with or without silencer fitted / JB with or without silencer fitted.

Apologies for the mental pictures created by the next bit.

I have looked at the forum diagrams and Daniel had 5 shots to the back of his head and Nicholas had 3 shots to the face. Has it ever been established where the killer stood in the room and how the shots were dispatched i.e. the killer standing betwen the twin beds shooting one and then turning around and shooting the other, and I assume they were shot in that part of the body that simply faced the killer?

Were some of these shots contact shots and if so did any of the boys blood appear on or in the silencer - I don't think so?

I have not seen any evidence relating to the points you raise about the twins.  I doubt if it would have been possible to judge the height of the murderer as other factors, in particular the way in which the rifle was held, would affect the angle of the shots.  I do not believe the order of shots was established.  Since it appears that (fortunately) both twins were asleep when shot my guess is that all shots were fired in rapid succcession, possibly alternating between the two between shots.

[andrea]

I thought the facial shots were exit wounds? i was under the impression that both twins were shot to the back of the head.

[andrea]

Yes they do. It is just the timing of the accident that makes you think. Accidents on farms incidentally (completely nothing to do with this) are quite common. A farmer I used to do work for dowm Beckingham Street Tolleshunt Major fell from a ladder and was killed a few years ago. Anyone who lives in the district will know who I am talking about? But yes accidents in and around the home are very common as well.

How many people are actually killed as a result of an accident in their own home, i think the numbers are quite high, its where most accidents take place.

It could simply be a matter of Taff falling off the ladder, an accident and nothing more, in my opinion.

Grahame where is the spellchecker? i have seen people using it, but i cant seem to find it.

[grahameb]

As the poor twins were shot lying down in bed, has it been recorded what angle the shots were made at?

The twins were not moved in anyway and therefore the position they were in and the angle of the head shots could be significant.

Could the possible height of the murderer be established this way at all?

This of course applies to all possible scenarios

SC with or without silencer fitted / JB with or without silencer fitted.

Apologies for the mental pictures created by the next bit.

I have looked at the forum diagrams and Daniel had 5 shots to the back of his head and Nicholas had 3 shots to the face. Has it ever been established where the killer stood in the room and how the shots were dispatched i.e. the killer standing betwen the twin beds shooting one and then turning around and shooting the other, and I assume they were shot in that part of the body that simply faced the killer?

Were some of these shots contact shots and if so did any of the boys blood appear on or in the silencer - I don't think so?

I see you've been watching CSI on TV.? :D