Would it have been possible to move position of arm and right hand after 7 hours

[mike tesko]

Would it have been possible to move position of Sheila Caffells right arm and change the position of her right hand,after 7 hours

At what stage do the following  bodily conditions come into oplay and take effect:-

(1) Rigor mortis

(2) Livor mortis

[mike tesko]

For relevant information please visit the following links:-

(1) - http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html#b
(2) - http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html
(3) - http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680032-overview#aw2aab6b3

[mike tesko]

For some unexplained reason, the police surgeon (at scene)  nor the pathologist (at autopsy) took a body temperature...

[mike tesko]

There does not appear to be significant levels of "Livor mortis" in the photographs (above)  taken of Sheila Caffell, at the scene, after or, about 10am, to warrant a claim that she had been killed longer than seven hours previously...

[tonyb]

According to your link,Mike ,Yes.RM starts 2-6 hours after death,starting in eyelids,neck and jaw.over the next 4-6 hours spreading to other muscles. All dependant on age,build,sex,muscular build. So your information provided states it could be be possible up to 12 hours after death. I'm not saying this is the case,just what is stated in your Link.This cannot be disputed.It's there in print after all...

[tonyb]

+ PLEASE NOTE. I dont dispute what you are saying about Livor Mortis. I'm no expert and cannot make an informed descision other than in the pictures as presented in this thread,It is not apparent to me,but as i've said, I'm no expert.

[mike tesko]

+ PLEASE NOTE. I dont dispute what you are saying about . I'm no expert and cannot make an informed descision other than in the pictures as presented in this thread,It is not apparent to me,but as i've said, I'm no expert.

Go here:-

(1) - http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

I suggest the condition of Sheila's body, as shown in the crime scene photographs, were taken prior to her death having occurred less than four hours previously ( in other words at any stage between 7:30am - 9:30am)...

After 4 hours:

a} Rigor mortis starts to set in
b} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue

[mike tesko]

Look at the changes in the colour of Sheila's right arm, between the time it took for police to move the position of the hand on the gun, in the two crime scene photoghraphs shown. In the second image, there are two runs of dried blood which are present upon the inside of her right forearm, which did not leave a stain on the nightdress which it was covering in the previous photograph:-

[mike tesko]

What this tells the observer is that the two runs of blood on the inside of her right forearm had already dried before her right arm and hand were positioned onto the gun in the first photograph...

[tonyb]

Go here:-

(1) - http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

I suggest the condition of Sheila's body, as shown in the crime scene photographs, were taken prior to her death having occurred less than four hours previously ( in other words at any stage between 7:30am - 9:30am)...

After 4 hours:
Sorry Mike. i'm not going to read this link,From what I gather from this post it gives different time frames to suit your arguementon RM,which the first link didn't?As for the Photos & bolld not smearing,mate thats a joke not worth a reply.

a} Rigor mortis starts to set in
b} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue

[tonyb]

PS sorry to damage your post, unpick it if you can or i can repost

[mike tesko]

Well...

take a good look at the crime scene photographs, I am not talking about the smearing, I am talking about the two runs of blood that can be seen in one of these photographs which is situated on the inside of the forearm, and what I want to know, is why these two runs of blood have not been duplicated on the nightdress? It's not too difficult to see, or understand, and it must be obvious to anybody with even half a brain, that these two runs of blood were dry before Sheila's right arm and hand, were positioned on the rifle, otherwise, if the blood had been wet by that stage it would surely have transferred onto the nightdress, and show up on the nightdress once the police moved her right arm and hand...

[grahameb]

Well I must admit I'm not an expert at these things. But a question to Mertol perhaps? Does it look as if Sheila (forgive me for looking at those dreadful pictures of that poor woman again) is in rigor mortis to you? To me an untrained eye it looks quite relaxed?

[tonyb]

the way i see it,and i'm no photo expert is there are basicaly two photo's.One with the elblow straighter than the other.Its accepted the police moved the arm to photo blood on nightdress,so therefore which is the 1st. picture in the series of photo's?

[tonyb]

Go here:-

(1) - http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

I suggest the condition of Sheila's body, as shown in the crime scene photographs, were taken prior to her death having occurred less than four hours previously ( in other words at any stage between 7:30am - 9:30am)...

After 4 hours:

a} Rigor mortis starts to set in
b} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue

Mike
you are incorrect stating RM starts to set in after 4 hours as per (1) in reply 1 (as modified) it could be 6 hours before it STARTS to set in.
please read my reply 4 aswell as 5