PS Adams speaks to COLP, 1991...

[clifford]

Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.

There are several reasons and I have been considering for quite some time putting together my overall view of the case, but I'd want to do a decent job of it and it would take some time to do it properly.

Here's one to start with though...

JB apparently received a phone call in the middle of the night from his distraught father telling him that Sheila had the gun and was going berserk (or words to that effect).

My view on this...

a) if this was the case I think it very unlikely that Ralph would have phoned Jeremy and not the police.
b) JB took the time to phone his girlfriend to chat about it. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
c) JB took the time to look up the non-emergency number for the police station. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
d) he drove slowly which ensured he wasn't there when the police arrived. If my Dad phoned me to say my sister was running round my family's house with a gun I'd be driving like a lunatic to get there.

I therefore tend to believe that JB's version of the phone call from Ralph is a lie, and if that is the case then it's a pretty small step to concluding that he was involved in what happened, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself.

Who do you think pulled the trigger Bob.

I have always assumed JB did it himself in the absence of any evidence of 3rd party involvement.

The only slight nag I have about that is that JB had no apparent cuts or bruises, such as you might expect to find after the struggle with Ralph. It's possible though that as long as his face and hands were undamaged nobody would have known about any bodily bruises as he wasn't a suspect so wouldn't have been examined presumably?

So I'd say probably JB but I wouldn't entirely rule out Pugsie's hitman.

That's why I do not rule out Pargeter. He lied about the gun not being at WHF. He lied about the bolt.
If you care to look at his statements with an open mind, you will find a lot of things wrong.

[clifford]

Are you saying that Ann follows the forum. Why?
I thought she was convinced of JB's guilt.

She probably follows it to see what people are saying about her, although that's a guess I don't actually know why she follows it.

In addition all the documents on here have come from the defence, the relatives have not had any access to any of the documents with the exception of their own statements, so call it curiosity.

Yes I believe they are convinced of his guilt.

Sooner or later Harters things will go wrong, as too many people are on the case.
Ann time to come clean.

I don't believe that is the case, I also don't believe there is anything to come clean about.

On another note Cliff, have you read through the Dickinson Report? That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment, with regards to other theories presented on this forum I've given my view often and extensively.

Harters, I look forward to your views, but do find you lop sided.
On your own admittance you are connected to the family, so expect no less.
The fact still remains that if it was not for the family JB would have walked.
I will add wrongly, or rightly.

[smiffy]

Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.

There are several reasons and I have been considering for quite some time putting together my overall view of the case, but I'd want to do a decent job of it and it would take some time to do it properly.

Here's one to start with though...

JB apparently received a phone call in the middle of the night from his distraught father telling him that Sheila had the gun and was going berserk (or words to that effect).

My view on this...

a) if this was the case I think it very unlikely that Ralph would have phoned Jeremy and not the police.
b) JB took the time to phone his girlfriend to chat about it. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
c) JB took the time to look up the non-emergency number for the police station. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
d) he drove slowly which ensured he wasn't there when the police arrived. If my Dad phoned me to say my sister was running round my family's house with a gun I'd be driving like a lunatic to get there.

I therefore tend to believe that JB's version of the phone call from Ralph is a lie, and if that is the case then it's a pretty small step to concluding that he was involved in what happened, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself.

Sheila had a history and previous episodes while troublesome had been dealt with by the family and the act of Ralph phoning JB would be for JB to feel it could be dealt with by the family or a less than emergency police involvement. People are reluctant to phone 999 when they are not certain of the situation being a genuine emergency so in such cases where there is room for doubt...as in this one...they call the local police number.
All quite credible and believable in the circumstances.

If JB had phone 999 off the back of a call from his father this could have been used against him...an argument being contructed that from off such flimsy details as his father calling him how he knew it was the real deal this time and not another barmy troublesome episode as had been experienced before with Sheila and that he should have played it down and just got the local police to check it out at his leisure..If his father thought he could handle it by not calling 999 then surely there would be no need for JB in a less informed position to have phoned 999. Thus by making it appear a more serious matter than should have been apparent to him then JB had guilty knowledge.

In many things people do a critical argument may be made to view something as suspicious by those intent on making something look suspicious even when there is no real sustance. This is a big fault with circumstantial evidence cases....as often they have no substance when fully tested.

[Roch]

Have you read through the Dickinson Report?  That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment

Hartley, Mike was saying that there are two Dickinson Reports.  One for publication and one not for publication.  An 'internal' Dickinson Report.  Perhaps if you are going to align your self with the contents of any report, it should be the internal, not for publication report?  Not that this is possible for you to do. But I think you can see where I'm coming from.

[clifford]

Also Cliff, Ann is on here already, if you want to play a game of guess the Moniker?

Ann, what do think now.
Are you still certain Jeremy done this, or are you still sure in your beliefs.
Is it true you were having an affair with JB. or is this a myth.
Do you think the time he has spent in prison is enough.
I personally think that you read too much into it, and came to the wrong conclusion.
Your grandfather, and father had so much at stake, it was better that JB was the fall guy, and secured your future.
You didn't know sheila at all, and what she was capable of.
Ann are you content that JB will be in prison for the rest of his life, for something most people think is a MOJ.
Ann I think you convinced yourself JB was guilty, but was mistaken.
I hope you can find it in yourself to come forward to say so.

[smiffy]

Also Cliff, Ann is on here already, if you want to play a game of guess the Moniker?

Ann, what do think now.
Are you still certain Jeremy done this, or are you still sure in your beliefs.
Is it true you were having an affair with JB. or is this a myth.
Do you think the time he has spent in prison is enough.
I personally think that you read too much into it, and came to the wrong conclusion.
Your grandfather, and father had so much at stake, it was better that JB was the fall guy, and secured your future.
You didn't know sheila at all, and what she was capable of.
Ann are you content that JB will be in prison for the rest of his life, for something most people think is a MOJ.
Ann I think you convinced yourself JB was guilty, but was mistaken.
I hope you can find it in yourself to come forward to say so.

Ann it seems denied having an affair...but what is an affair...a relationship over a period of time.
Indeed she may have viewed that question as a relationship over a period of time so was able to deny it truthfully. A second linked question would be one of whether she had sex on a one hight stand type basis with JB rather than having sex as part of an affair. So a direct denial about sex with JB was not made.
best to set the matter straight as it were.

[H]

Have you read through the Dickinson Report?  That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment

Hartley, Mike was saying that there are two Dickinson Reports.  One for publication and one not for publication.  An 'internal' Dickinson Report.  Perhaps if you are going to align your self with the contents of any report, it should be the internal, not for publication report?  Not that this is possible for you to do. But I think you can see where I'm coming from.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe there two reports. There may have been a draft version prior to it being finalised. In any event the contents of the report that has been released is what I was referring to. There is a link to most of it im my statements library. I've got the rest of it and will post when I have time.

I wasn't mentioning it for any other reason than a response to Cliff who incorrectly determined my views.

[bob]

Sheila had a history and previous episodes while troublesome had been dealt with by the family and the act of Ralph phoning JB would be for JB to feel it could be dealt with by the family or a less than emergency police involvement.

She had no history of running round the house with a loaded gun. Have you ever met a schitzophrenic in the middle of a serious episode? Believe me, if they had a loaded gun you would sh*t yourself and run like f*.

[Roch]

Have you read through the Dickinson Report?  That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment

Hartley, Mike was saying that there are two Dickinson Reports.  One for publication and one not for publication.  An 'internal' Dickinson Report.  Perhaps if you are going to align your self with the contents of any report, it should be the internal, not for publication report?  Not that this is possible for you to do. But I think you can see where I'm coming from.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe there two reports. There may have been a draft version prior to it being finalised. In any event the contents of the report that has been released is what I was referring to. There is a link to most of it im my statements library. I've got the rest of it and will post when I have time.

I wasn't mentioning it for any other reason than a response to Cliff who incorrectly determined my views.

Do you think it is conceivable in the world of officialdom, especially involving sensitive enquiries of an investigative nature, that it could be accepted practice to produce two reports?  One for general consumption and one as a restricted, classified record?

[HMEssex]

Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.

There are several reasons and I have been considering for quite some time putting together my overall view of the case, but I'd want to do a decent job of it and it would take some time to do it properly.

Here's one to start with though...

JB apparently received a phone call in the middle of the night from his distraught father telling him that Sheila had the gun and was going berserk (or words to that effect).

My view on this...

a) if this was the case I think it very unlikely that Ralph would have phoned Jeremy and not the police.
b) JB took the time to phone his girlfriend to chat about it. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
c) JB took the time to look up the non-emergency number for the police station. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
d) he drove slowly which ensured he wasn't there when the police arrived. If my Dad phoned me to say my sister was running round my family's house with a gun I'd be driving like a lunatic to get there.

I therefore tend to believe that JB's version of the phone call from Ralph is a lie, and if that is the case then it's a pretty small step to concluding that he was involved in what happened, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself.

Sheila had a history and previous episodes while troublesome had been dealt with by the family and the act of Ralph phoning JB would be for JB to feel it could be dealt with by the family or a less than emergency police involvement. People are reluctant to phone 999 when they are not certain of the situation being a genuine emergency so in such cases where there is room for doubt...as in this one...they call the local police number.
All quite credible and believable in the circumstances.

If JB had phone 999 off the back of a call from his father this could have been used against him...an argument being contructed that from off such flimsy details as his father calling him how he knew it was the real deal this time and not another barmy troublesome episode as had been experienced before with Sheila and that he should have played it down and just got the local police to check it out at his leisure..If his father thought he could handle it by not calling 999 then surely there would be no need for JB in a less informed position to have phoned 999. Thus by making it appear a more serious matter than should have been apparent to him then JB had guilty knowledge.

In many things people do a critical argument may be made to view something as suspicious by those intent on making something look suspicious even when there is no real sustance. This is a big fault with circumstantial evidence cases....as often they have no substance when fully tested.

Reluctance to dial 999 due to uncertainty is what I believe happened with JB for the reasons you have stated.  At that stage he had no idea what the situation was, which could also mean that no one had been shot at that stage, hence Ralph phoning Jeremy and not 999 himself. IMO.

[smiffy]

Sheila had a history and previous episodes while troublesome had been dealt with by the family and the act of Ralph phoning JB would be for JB to feel it could be dealt with by the family or a less than emergency police involvement.

She had no history of running round the house with a loaded gun. Have you ever met a schitzophrenic in the middle of a serious episode? Believe me, if they had a loaded gun you would sh*t yourself and run like f*.

erm answer to the question posed...
answer is yes....my ex wife was one and did have episodes in which harm or death could be caused ...but with children about  ...stupid running away was no option.
erm anyone with any sense would ensure a schizophrenic would not be able to access firearms ...seems like Ralph was nowhere near as sensible or responsible as he should have been ...
all firearms there should have been locked away securely so Sheila could not access them.

[H]

Have you read through the Dickinson Report?  That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment

Hartley, Mike was saying that there are two Dickinson Reports.  One for publication and one not for publication.  An 'internal' Dickinson Report.  Perhaps if you are going to align your self with the contents of any report, it should be the internal, not for publication report?  Not that this is possible for you to do. But I think you can see where I'm coming from.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe there two reports. There may have been a draft version prior to it being finalised. In any event the contents of the report that has been released is what I was referring to. There is a link to most of it im my statements library. I've got the rest of it and will post when I have time.

I wasn't mentioning it for any other reason than a response to Cliff who incorrectly determined my views.

Do you think it is conceivable in the world of officialdom, especially involving sensitive enquiries of an investigative nature, that it could be accepted practice to produce two reports?  One for general consumption and one as a restricted, classified record?

There is nothing to suggest that is the case. Are you really suggesting there is another report which came to a different conclusion?

[smiffy]

As Adams is the one who claims to have been informed by radio that a womens body had been seen through the window ..this is the place to discuss this issue.
Upon hearing this information Adams claims to have sent JB away from CP (control point) in the barn area to another vehicle...he did not want JB over hearing radio messages.
In one of the logs of the incident it decribes JB leaving heading for the track for a rest ?
The question mark being included in the log....
The time of this mention in the log is given as 7.25 am.
If the claims about Collin's sighting of a female body and Adams hears this message via the radio and hence he sends JB away out of radio earshot is correct then it seems to be the case that the sighting by Collins had to be shortly before JB was sent away at 7.25 am. This all seems to add up. That the reason for JB leaving CP is given as questionable is strongly suggestive that they did not wish to divulge in th logs the true reason for sending JB away and what prompted it.

[Roch]

Have you read through the Dickinson Report?  That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment

Hartley, Mike was saying that there are two Dickinson Reports.  One for publication and one not for publication.  An 'internal' Dickinson Report.  Perhaps if you are going to align your self with the contents of any report, it should be the internal, not for publication report?  Not that this is possible for you to do. But I think you can see where I'm coming from.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe there two reports. There may have been a draft version prior to it being finalised. In any event the contents of the report that has been released is what I was referring to. There is a link to most of it im my statements library. I've got the rest of it and will post when I have time.

I wasn't mentioning it for any other reason than a response to Cliff who incorrectly determined my views.

Do you think it is conceivable in the world of officialdom, especially involving sensitive enquiries of an investigative nature, that it could be accepted practice to produce two reports?  One for general consumption and one as a restricted, classified record?

There is nothing to suggest that is the case. Are you really suggesting there is another report which came to a different conclusion?

My question was generic.  But in this particular case there could be two different conclusions.  For instance, if as Jeremy Bamber and Mike Tesko suggest, the internal report indicates two silencers, then at the very least there could be an inference of 'noble cause corruption'? 

[Alias]

Also Cliff, Ann is on here already, if you want to play a game of guess the Moniker?

Maybe she will join the Wide Awake Club? That´d be fun - especially when jackie is around!    OMG