PS Adams speaks to COLP, 1991...

[H]

You may be inventing things here in some rather odd speculation Hartley. It is as though you are suggesting the only person the firearms team communicated with was Adams and that he alone then passed messages to CA 7.  Be very careful here as it has big BIG implications..TRY READING UP and working out exactly what they are.

Smiffy you are in my opinion a bit of a muppet. Sorry I'm trying refrain from such things. 

Your suggestion that I am inventing things in rather odd speculation, is well and truly wide of the mark, it's particularly odd when your remark is compared to your own posts.

Likewise, your attempt to make it look like I am suggesting something which I am not is very transparent.

Your advice that I should TRY READING UP is also laughable. If there is any one thing that we could ever agree on, I would have thought that it was that I have very obviously 'READ UP' considerably.

I will leave you to it though, I tried again to converse civilly and sensibly (despite my humour) with you, but it appears to me (in my opinion) that it is beyond you. If you concentrated half as much on the case as you did trying to out do me, or show me up, then you never know, you may even get somewhere.
Good luck with that though.   

[smiffy]

You may be inventing things here in some rather odd speculation Hartley. It is as though you are suggesting the only person the firearms team communicated with was Adams and that he alone then passed messages to CA 7.  Be very careful here as it has big BIG implications..TRY READING UP and working out exactly what they are.

Smiffy you are in my opinion a bit of a muppet. Sorry I'm trying refrain from such things. 

Your suggestion that I am inventing things in rather odd speculation, is well and truly wide of the mark, it's particularly odd when your remark is compared to your own posts.

Likewise, your attempt to make it look like I am suggesting something which I am not is very transparent.

Your advice that I should TRY READING UP is also laughable. If there is any one thing that we could ever agree on, I would have thought that it was that I have very obviously 'READ UP' considerably.

I will leave you to it though, I tried again to converse civilly and sensibly (despite my humour) with you, but it appears to me (in my opinion) that it is beyond you. If you concentrated half as much on the case as you did trying to out do me, or show me up, then you never know, you may even get somewhere.
Good luck with that though.

soon became abusive didn't you hartley...name calling etc is very childish.

you really are a nasty deceptive and evasive character in my view.

why have you resorted to abuse Hartley....did you realise some of the impications and that you caught yourself out on the issue?...so all you had to resort to personal attacks and abuse...seen it too often

explain why the official (general ) radio logs do not record a female body being observed etc etc etc and why Adams never speaks of passing information onto CA7 by radio. Why does the radio log give the information that it does if it all came through Adams as you basically  propose? there would be no room for the errors suggested in various excuses for mistaking a female for a male.
think of the 3 further bodies and explain that away as being made by Adams.

[smiffy]

oh  lets think back to July 1st on this forum and Hartley makes a post in which the accusation is quite clearly implied that I, smiffy, was posting using several user names as they all had the same so called ip address.
remember that do you Hartley...
a false claim made by you Hartley ..either by genuine mistake or out of malice...
no apologies were received or corrections made that I am aware of.
was it embarassing hartley?

If people end their membership they lose the ability to delete or edit old posts that may come back to haunt them...which if they stayed and deleted they may be able to hide.
Suddenly not looking so clever now are you Hartley.

[H]

Right, this will be my last reply to you.

I don't know what you mean by official general radio logs. There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.

The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".

... ..........................................................
The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
... ............................................................

Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

... .......................................................
MY OPINION AND THEORY: (which has changed slightly to what I have previously given).

In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.
... ..........................................................................

Now Smiffy, that is my theory, you are now welcome to twist it into anything you like, you can suggest I said something which I did not. You can even suggest as you have done before on many occasions that I lack judgement, or have lost my credibility or I am being nonsensical. Whatever floats your boat and helps you get through the day.

Over and out.

[smiffy]

Adams in his COLP makes out that when it was reported to him by radio that Collins had seen a female  body through the window he was in the barn area with Harris and Gibbons.
He then says he instructed someone to move JB to "another vehicle" to keep him our of earshot of the radios . In some of the comments he mentions he didnt want JB to hear "our radios" which is plural ..which suggests both the special radio's and the normal ones.

What does this mean...whose vehicle was JB in at the time  and was Adams in a vehicle himself or in the barn area?

[smiffy]

Right, this will be my last reply to you.

I don't know what you mean by official general radio logs. There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.

The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".

... ..........................................................
The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
... ............................................................

Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

... .......................................................
MY OPINION AND THEORY: (which has changed slightly to what I have previously given).

In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.
... ..........................................................................

Now Smiffy, that is my theory, you are now welcome to twist it into anything you like, you can suggest I said something which I did not. You can even suggest as you have done before on many occasions that I lack judgement, or have lost my credibility or I am being nonsensical. Whatever floats your boat and helps you get through the day.

Over and out.

Good try but Adams himself states that shortly after entry was gained  he was informed of the "mistake" by the firearms team. So he would know there was only one body so he had no need to pass on wrong information. There is no record on the radio logs of a mistake being made.
It seems that Adams is lying on this issue.

[smiffy]

Another bit of statement analysis on Adams statement to COLP.

"I note mentally the messages relayed from my raid team"


When people are telling the truth they recall from memory and will speak in the past tense correctly.
When lying the process of fabrication can often lead to the liar making tense errors as they contrstuct the lie.

Adams uses the present tense  "I note" and not the past tense "I noted"...this is a good strong indicator that what he is claiming is fabricated.

Or it's a good strong indicator that somebody forgot to transcribe the "d".

oh what a simple explanation ...someone forgot to transcribe the letter d.

only trouble is that in many other parts of his statement Adams uses the present tense when he should be using past tense. He can use past tense correctly for the most part so his language is fine.
The use of present tense is in areas of concern and do indicate very strongly that he is being deceptive.

[clifford]

Another bit of statement analysis on Adams statement to COLP.

"I note mentally the messages relayed from my raid team"


When people are telling the truth they recall from memory and will speak in the past tense correctly.
When lying the process of fabrication can often lead to the liar making tense errors as they contrstuct the lie.

Adams uses the present tense  "I note" and not the past tense "I noted"...this is a good strong indicator that what he is claiming is fabricated.

Or it's a good strong indicator that somebody forgot to transcribe the "d".

oh what a simple explanation ...someone forgot to transcribe the letter d.

only trouble is that in many other parts of his statement Adams uses the present tense when he should be using past tense. He can use past tense correctly for the most part so his language is fine.
The use of present tense is in areas of concern and do indicate very strongly that he is being deceptive.

Good reply Smiffy.
It seems to me that all the pro Bambers put suggestions forward, but are taken apart by the other side without suggesting any other theories. They seem to sit on the sidelines and snipe at pro Bambers, but have no other rational comments.
This is a simple task for a non thinking person.
The non Bambers come out with stupid comments likle "the jury found him guilty", but cannot back up their comments.
Have you noticed thar not one of them to a person have given a credible reason why JB  had been responsible.
Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.
Do you really believe the cops were on the case, or like me think they were incompetent. Too many peiple on this site are totally blinkered, and believe EP are wonderful.
Let me tell you in my experience they are bent, and sooner or later you will find I am right.
I hope you do not go through what I have been through with this totally corrupt force, and I am under no illusion that I am the only one.
Hartley is in the pocket of the family, and will never post a bad word, because he cannot.
Wrongly or rightly I somtimes that that Hartley is the dodgy AE.
Lets be clear here none of the anti's have a crock of **** in their beliefs, but rely on us to reply to their inane questions, and muddle ouselves. [Which we normally do].

[H]

I thought I'd just documented one theory of mine in this very thread Cliff. Did you miss it?

[H]

Also Cliff, Ann is on here already, if you want to play a game of guess the Moniker?

[bob]

Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.

There are several reasons and I have been considering for quite some time putting together my overall view of the case, but I'd want to do a decent job of it and it would take some time to do it properly.

Here's one to start with though...

JB apparently received a phone call in the middle of the night from his distraught father telling him that Sheila had the gun and was going berserk (or words to that effect).

My view on this...

a) if this was the case I think it very unlikely that Ralph would have phoned Jeremy and not the police.
b) JB took the time to phone his girlfriend to chat about it. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
c) JB took the time to look up the non-emergency number for the police station. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
d) he drove slowly which ensured he wasn't there when the police arrived. If my Dad phoned me to say my sister was running round my family's house with a gun I'd be driving like a lunatic to get there.

I therefore tend to believe that JB's version of the phone call from Ralph is a lie, and if that is the case then it's a pretty small step to concluding that he was involved in what happened, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself.

[clifford]

Also Cliff, Ann is on here already, if you want to play a game of guess the Moniker?

Are you saying that Ann follows the forum. Why?
I thought she was convinced of JB's guilt.
Sooner or later Harters things will go wrong, as too many people are on the case.
Ann time to come clean.

[clifford]

Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.

There are several reasons and I have been considering for quite some time putting together my overall view of the case, but I'd want to do a decent job of it and it would take some time to do it properly.

Here's one to start with though...

JB apparently received a phone call in the middle of the night from his distraught father telling him that Sheila had the gun and was going berserk (or words to that effect).

My view on this...

a) if this was the case I think it very unlikely that Ralph would have phoned Jeremy and not the police.
b) JB took the time to phone his girlfriend to chat about it. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
c) JB took the time to look up the non-emergency number for the police station. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
d) he drove slowly which ensured he wasn't there when the police arrived. If my Dad phoned me to say my sister was running round my family's house with a gun I'd be driving like a lunatic to get there.

I therefore tend to believe that JB's version of the phone call from Ralph is a lie, and if that is the case then it's a pretty small step to concluding that he was involved in what happened, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself.

Who do you think pulled the trigger Bob.

[bob]

Come on you guilty brigade tell us why you think JB was the murderer, instead of sitting on your fat arses and sniping.

There are several reasons and I have been considering for quite some time putting together my overall view of the case, but I'd want to do a decent job of it and it would take some time to do it properly.

Here's one to start with though...

JB apparently received a phone call in the middle of the night from his distraught father telling him that Sheila had the gun and was going berserk (or words to that effect).

My view on this...

a) if this was the case I think it very unlikely that Ralph would have phoned Jeremy and not the police.
b) JB took the time to phone his girlfriend to chat about it. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
c) JB took the time to look up the non-emergency number for the police station. Again, I can't believe anyone would do this.
d) he drove slowly which ensured he wasn't there when the police arrived. If my Dad phoned me to say my sister was running round my family's house with a gun I'd be driving like a lunatic to get there.

I therefore tend to believe that JB's version of the phone call from Ralph is a lie, and if that is the case then it's a pretty small step to concluding that he was involved in what happened, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself.

Who do you think pulled the trigger Bob.

I have always assumed JB did it himself in the absence of any evidence of 3rd party involvement.

The only slight nag I have about that is that JB had no apparent cuts or bruises, such as you might expect to find after the struggle with Ralph. It's possible though that as long as his face and hands were undamaged nobody would have known about any bodily bruises as he wasn't a suspect so wouldn't have been examined presumably?

So I'd say probably JB but I wouldn't entirely rule out Pugsie's hitman.

[H]

Are you saying that Ann follows the forum. Why?
I thought she was convinced of JB's guilt.

She probably follows it to see what people are saying about her, although that's a guess I don't actually know why she follows it.

In addition all the documents on here have come from the defence, the relatives have not had any access to any of the documents with the exception of their own statements, so call it curiosity.

Yes I believe they are convinced of his guilt.

Sooner or later Harters things will go wrong, as too many people are on the case.
Ann time to come clean.

I don't believe that is the case, I also don't believe there is anything to come clean about.

On another note Cliff, have you read through the Dickinson Report? That pretty much outlines where I am at at the moment, with regards to other theories presented on this forum I've given my view often and extensively.