Author Topic: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...  (Read 13423 times)

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Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2011, 11:15:PM »
I'm possibly on the wrong thread here, I've got a bit lost, but I would be very interested to know if JM really could identify which twin was which, especially after (presumably) being warned of the extent of their injuries. Did she really know them so well?

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2011, 11:28:PM »
I'm possibly on the wrong thread here, I've got a bit lost, but I would be very interested to know if JM really could identify which twin was which, especially after (presumably) being warned of the extent of their injuries. Did she really know them so well?

Well nobody else seemed to object, and I don't think the front of their faces would be so bad... then again, twins alive and well, vs twins when dead might be quite a different thing (but that's true for anybody who'd have to identify them).

IF she could identify them, then that suggests a fairly close relationship with them, and sheila I would think (or even Colin?)

Not impossible, since Sheila was older, but certainly closer to Jeremy and Julie's age group...

In real practical terms... who WAS going to do it? Jeremy ought to have I'd have thought, but after him... who? call me old fashioned, but I'd have expected one of the men to volunteer, but women can really rise to the occasion sometimes. Seems nobody did though, except Julie.

What was to gain? some morbid kick? If she did get such a thing from it, none of the family seemed to think so then or after (to my limited knowledge).

But overall, I just can't help but feel someone related to the family by blood ought to have done it. David Boutflour perhaps, or Robert, or Pamela (hard as it may be).

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2011, 11:35:PM »
Well, I might be wandering into the realm of the Twilight Zone (although I wouldn't be the first!) but could JM have had an ulterior motive for viewing the bodies? I'm still going with the theory of a paid hit-man - could JB have been interested in knowing how the bodies looked?

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2011, 11:41:PM »
And from a previous post I understand that JM readily agreed to identify the bodies, almost before anyone else could volunteer. And surely, because of the range and amount of shots to (tragically) such small heads, there would have been facial damage.

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2011, 11:44:PM »
Well, I might be wandering into the realm of the Twilight Zone (although I wouldn't be the first!) but could JM have had an ulterior motive for viewing the bodies? I'm still going with the theory of a paid hit-man - could JB have been interested in knowing how the bodies looked?

Yes

But 'ulterior' can sound sinister or wrong... some people do have a morbid curiosity. In fact most do, in some form or another.

Put a picture of June dead on here and I bet you it gets viewed many many times... I know I've looked.
I don't know that I'd volunteer to see them for real, but clearly Julie did.
Funny how she was 'together' enough to do something that tough (by most people's standards) but didn't have the guts to tell the police sooner.


Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2011, 11:46:PM »
And from a previous post I understand that JM readily agreed to identify the bodies, almost before anyone else could volunteer. And surely, because of the range and amount of shots to (tragically) such small heads, there would have been facial damage.

I disagree with the 'barging in' type scenario. I think the family would have had plenty of change to decline her offer even if she did AND, if it had seemed 'out of line' surely they would have said "thanks Julie, but it really ought to be one of us"
They didnt
They let her do it

Maybe we should be looking at the family and saying "hmmm YOU let her DO IT?... WHY?"

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2011, 12:07:AM »
Can we truly imagine how anyone involved with this case would have reacted at the time? We're now working with hindsight - but I do agree with your point about morbid curiosity. Because of this forum I've googled stuff that has upset me, frightened me, and taken me to sites that I would have never dreamt of visiting. And I'm afraid that it has re-inforced my theory that a third party was involved.

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2011, 12:25:AM »
Can we truly imagine how anyone involved with this case would have reacted at the time? We're now working with hindsight - but I do agree with your point about morbid curiosity. Because of this forum I've googled stuff that has upset me, frightened me, and taken me to sites that I would have never dreamt of visiting. And I'm afraid that it has re-inforced my theory that a third party was involved.

By 3rd party, do you mean hitman/woman, another member of the extended family, or somebody completely external?

If a hitman, this seemed to have been completely discounted at trial, but this need not mean it wasn't possible... just that both sides decided to fight on "me vs you" and mutually agreed to exclude the notion of a hitman (this actually is true for any 3rd party).

IF it was a hitman, then someone hired them... if it was Jeremy, they I can't see him doing 25 years without bringing the hitman down with him, and he ought to have set up a better alibi for himself.
If someone from the family hired a hitman, then they move in some strange circles, and I'd better shut up now before I'm next.
If it was a complete stranger, then they went to a lot of effort to make it look like a suicide. They didn't want the jewels, so it must have been a grudge... heck of a grudge I'd say.

What's your thinking behind 3rd party?


Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2011, 12:40:AM »
TBM, I've had a tough day, struggling with a recalcitrant pony and a runaway pug, and I will never match your grasp of language or facts, but at the risk of sounding like a complete plum I'm going to trudge down the hit-man route for a while longer, because it works for me and puts so many pieces of the jigsaw into place. If JB hired a hit-man it would make him almost equally culpable, and also  in danger of retribution. I'm guessing that that's a bit woolly for you, but it makes more sense than most of the theories on here. Suck it and see.

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2011, 01:02:AM »
AND, TBM, I can dredge up a myriad of evidence, all shown on this forum, and mostly conflicting, and still JM's original testimony, before she a) panicked and b) was persuaded of a way out of the whole, horrible mess, rings true as the probable scenario. I think that she knew all along what was planned, but probably didn't believe that it would be carried out. And when it was, certain elements helped her to cover her own arse. Pardon my french.

Jackiepreece

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2011, 01:11:AM »
As we have a vote on is jb guilty could we have a vote regarding Julie mugford on which is worse

1 Lying that your boyfriend has committed murder because you have been dumped putting him in prison for the rest of his life

2 Being aware 5 people were going to be murdered, before, on the day, and knowing when the murders had happened,  offering to identify the bodies, attending the funerals supporting the person who carried out the murders and standing next to the father of two children your boyfriend had just murdered the spending the  next month living it up and holidaying twice with the murderer. Then selling your story for £25,000


Which is worse because it is either one or the other?

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2011, 01:21:AM »
Oh, hello Jackie. You are such a staunch supporter of JB. Well done. But may I just add this - Ann Eaton's statement was fascinating - blah, blah, blah.... until the bit about the silencer (still IMO the ultimate red herring) and suddenly her statement is detailed and repetetive, and seemingly rehearsed. It's like pin the tail on the donkey. "It couldn't have been Sheila, she didn't shoot, couldn't even pour a cup of tea. So who else could it have been?" I know I'm banging on, but to me it's all very obvious. TBM, I await your shooting me down in flames!!

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2011, 01:35:AM »
And Jackie, if you're still out there, please don't take this as a criticism, but I would genuinely like to know if you have ever wavered from your belief that JB is innocent. Has nothing that you have ever read, on this forum or elsewhere, ever caused you to doubt JB, even for a moment?

Offline shonapugs

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2011, 01:59:AM »
And, one more point, would anyone disagree (apart from Jackie and Mike) that on the strength of testimonies shown on this forum, JB's demeanour after the decimation of his entire family was brusque, even cavalier? Is it just me who has always remained unconvinced by his "sad" face at the funeral?

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Missing Fingernail of Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2011, 02:35:AM »
And, one more point, would anyone disagree (apart from Jackie and Mike) that on the strength of testimonies shown on this forum, JB's demeanour after the decimation of his entire family was brusque, even cavalier? Is it just me who has always remained unconvinced by his "sad" face at the funeral?

I'm not sure I agree, but definitely don't disagree... allow me to explain:

There doesn't seem to be much testimony (other than Ann Eaton's) that makes much of his demeanour.
There's some stuff about the actions he carried out though which fall in line with the 'not exactly distraught' view.

But there's a massive danger. He was good looking, reasonably privileged you might argue. Certainly above average for the UK. Perhaps you might describe it 'public school' type. Almost conditioned to have the permanent 'smugness' about him.

I think it would be fair to say that type of manner is generally not going to appeal to the masses (in this situation), as a Prime Minister, maybe, but not as a potential murderer. Although not quite a yuppie, he wasn't far off in most people's eyes. (And yuppies where very much of that era)

If I were advising him, I'd without question tell him that his appearance and manner would do nothing to help him, only hinder him, but that wouldn't make him arrogant, or brusque, he simply appeared to be.

Many of his actions also did him no favours at all, even though only one of them was 'wrong' (breaking back into the house).

I do agree that as the public impression went (by and large) people thought him smug and a little too 'full of himself'.
There are many reports of others who knew him saying this too, but this is hearsay, and it's easy to say that after he's been accused. I must note too that I didn't find many saying he was a monster (as sometimes they do)

Anybody trying to claim he was seen as 'normal happy go lucky young man' would be hard pressed.

If ever there was a young man who FITTED the image of 'spoilt brat kills to get hands on money" he was it.
I do believe that really counted against in the minds of the public, and the jury.


I feel though that I must defend some of his actions too...

BECAUSE he had good looks and a certain swagger, a bit of money and privilege... people judged his actions to git in with that image... "off to the south of france!".

If our families had all been killed, we might well have tried to get away for a short while... somewhere in the country maybe and people might say "aww, who blames them, cottage in Devon to avoid all the press", but because he could afford to go to Amsterdam or SoF, it looks like he's being flash with the cash and enjoying a 'holiday' !!!

It's said he spent reasonably lavishly after the deaths too... perhaps dining and drinking more than you might expect... but people grieve in many ways, Trying to put it behind you, going to a pub, and people buying you drinks, offering condolences etc... can quickly be reported as drinking in a bar with 10 'friends' living it up.

If I'm honest, I am one of those people who think he over egged the pudding at the funeral, and acted incredibly unwisely after the deaths, and I suspect it was simple manifestation of his arrogance. He could LITERALLY get away with murder. So cocky, he gave little consideration to keeping his head down to avoid being caught.
It's every bit as valid to think "that's how he was" and since he didn't do it, he didn't think like a killer. If he HAD been a killer, he was a total idiot, he'd have kept his head down.

So all in all - toss away his image and the hearsay about him (if you can) ... and look at what he did and said, rather that how he did something or said something.

(but if you see anybody like him, don't buy a car from them) ;-)