why dident the boys wake up

[Steve A]

The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.

Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.

Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?

Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.

Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.

Does that make any sense?

[smiffy]

The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.

Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.

Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?

Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.

Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.

Does that make any sense?

No blood from Ralph was found in the bedroom. The 4 shots (cant be the 4 fatal shots) would have to be his left shoulder, left arm (bullet exited and not found), and two to the jaw. Bullet wounds bleed and the ones to the jaw would bleed heavily.  He would leave a considerable blood trail in his wake and the minimal amounts on a bit of wallpaper (and a door jamb ? ) are not consistent with such injuries and could have easily been faked or from a cause that was not the passage of Ralph.
The shots to the shoulder and arm indicate that Ralph had to be lower down than the rifle when fired...ie Ralph crawling or similar or Ralph near bottom of stairs and assailant at top of the stairs.

Want to mislead anyone in a shooting ..simple move bullet cases...done in seconds...risks exposure though when blood trails etc dont match .

[Steve A]

The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.

Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.

Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?

Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.

Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.

Does that make any sense?

No blood from Ralph was found in the bedroom. The 4 shots (cant be the 4 fatal shots) would have to be his left shoulder, left arm (bullet exited and not found), and two to the jaw. Bullet wounds bleed and the ones to the jaw would bleed heavily.  He would leave a considerable blood trail in his wake and the minimal amounts on a bit of wallpaper (and a door jamb ? ) are not consistent with such injuries and could have easily been faked or from a cause that was not the passage of Ralph.
The shots to the shoulder and arm indicate that Ralph had to be lower down than the rifle when fired...ie Ralph crawling or similar or Ralph near bottom of stairs and assailant at top of the stairs.

Want to mislead anyone in a shooting ..simple move bullet cases...done in seconds...risks exposure though when blood trails etc dont match .

Okay, so it's a theory rather than based on actual evidence as such. I must admit I was under the impression that Ralphs blood was found in the bedroom, but from what you say it seems I'm mistaken on that score.

Another issue though, is that you refer to bullet wounds bleeding heavily, particularly one to the jaw, would that not also counter the argument that Sheila was shot downstairs and moved upstairs bearing in mind the apparent lack of blood, or at least the lack of reports of blood?

[smiffy]

The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.

Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.

Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?

Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.

Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.

Does that make any sense?

No blood from Ralph was found in the bedroom. The 4 shots (cant be the 4 fatal shots) would have to be his left shoulder, left arm (bullet exited and not found), and two to the jaw. Bullet wounds bleed and the ones to the jaw would bleed heavily.  He would leave a considerable blood trail in his wake and the minimal amounts on a bit of wallpaper (and a door jamb ? ) are not consistent with such injuries and could have easily been faked or from a cause that was not the passage of Ralph.
The shots to the shoulder and arm indicate that Ralph had to be lower down than the rifle when fired...ie Ralph crawling or similar or Ralph near bottom of stairs and assailant at top of the stairs.

Want to mislead anyone in a shooting ..simple move bullet cases...done in seconds...risks exposure though when blood trails etc dont match .

Okay, so it's a theory rather than based on actual evidence as such. I must admit I was under the impression that Ralphs blood was found in the bedroom, but from what you say it seems I'm mistaken on that score.

Another issue though, is that you refer to bullet wounds bleeding heavily, particularly one to the jaw, would that not also counter the argument that Sheila was shot downstairs and moved upstairs bearing in mind the apparent lack of blood, or at least the lack of reports of blood?

YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.

Sheila being moved upstairs...no problem...only 2 shots to Sheila. One or both may have been delivered downstairs or neither. The police observation through a window only reported a female body but nothing on status ..alive or dead or how positioned etc.

If the police moved Sheila then they could have taken precautions to carry her without spilling blood.
The blood pattern from around Sheila's first wound indicates that it had clotted somewhat prior to some movement of her body and may not have bled too much externally. The blood soaking into her nightdress.  It is possible she could have gone up the stairs on her own in such a condition and not spilled blood.

Ralph's 2 jaw shots and 2 shots to his arm are different in that the blood from the jaw shots could not be easily contained and would fall to the floor on walking about. Blood running down his arm(he could not raise it due to bone fractures) would run down his arm onto the floor and carpet etc.

[Steve A]

YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.

Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.

[Newbury1]

This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman Ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, I'm sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.

If this event was undertaken by JB or an accomplice (or both together) NB would be dead first, in effect taking out the person most capable of fighting back.

However as we do not know the sequence of deaths perhaps NB was killed first.

In Shona's post on "Mike, whilst your on here" she suggests "More likely (again IMO) that Ralph was hit when he opened the kitchen door, because of the outside dog barking. That disabled him long enough for the assailant to run upstairs, shoot the boys, shoot June, then return to Ralph and shoot him. All the time, Sheila was in her room, paralysed with fear. She was found last, dragged to her parent's room (hence the marks on her arm) and executed on the floor."

I'm not fully convinced of JB's guilt as it is clear that there are very questionable issues relating to the verdict, but I would like to play a little devils advocate and suggest the following - for discussion purposes only (and no doubt a few smites  )

In this scenario JB has left the Anschutz and Brno in an outbuilding with as many preloaded magazines as possible (this maybe three magazines carrying up to 25 bullets (and one bullet already in each rifles breach)

JB and an accomplice use the accomplices vehicle to park near whf.

They both approach the kitchen door of whf in overalls, and the dog outside is barking. NB gets out of bed, goes to the kitchen and  opens the door. NB is shot (wounded), he staggers back into the kitchen and holds on to the work surface leaving the bloody finger prints, he tries moving back upstairs and smears blood on the hall wall, but is caught, dragged back into the kitchen, beaten and killed. The assailant suffers no significant marks.

Whilst one deals with NB the other rushes upstairs. June and SC are petrified. The boys remain asleep. One assailant moves quickly to shoot and kill June. An assailant then drags SC in to the main bedroom and shoots SC (in a preplanned attempt to make it look like a suicide in order to throw the police). The other or same assailant moves into the boys room and kills them.

Using ngb's reference as to how quick the shots could have been fired (Anschutz 3 rounds a second and the Brno bolt action 1 round a second) it would not have taken two people with a rifle each to kill all five pretty quickly (and this scenario does not involve a lot of loading whilst killing) .

The accomplice leaves by the kitchen door, JB, after lifting the phone off the handset, locks the kitchen door from the inside and leaves whf by a "self locking" window. They get back to the car change back into clean clothes. The accomplice drives JB back to near his home and JB slips back into Goldhanger. The accomplice takes the bloodied clothes away and burns them.

All this has happened I would say between 12 midnight and 1pm, leaving JB time to shower/compose himself before calling the police at c. 3.26am.

JB has no reason to disclose this scenario as it would do him no good, and the accomplice (having been done out of his pay due to JB's conviction) has gone abroad and tells no one.

Pargetter realising his Brno was at the farm on the night (and that this might implicate him) removes his gun as soon as possible and lies about its whereabouts on the night.

EP did not pursue this, as a two gun scenario would overcomplicate an already bungled and over
complicated situation, and set about creating a scenario to convict JB for a crime, after being duped by the 4 murders and a suicide set up, they came to believe he was involved with.

As for the bible, as it had a bookmark in the relevant page the perpetrators simply opened it that point to rest on SC (just fluke that it was that page!!)

This is a discussion scenario only and one that I do not totally believe in because it seems every scenario has a hole or two in it, but I thought I would give it a go 

I have my hands up so don't shoot 

[grahameb]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

[ngb1066]

YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.

Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.

Smiffy  -  I think you are being a little harsh here.  One of the purposes of the forum is to provide information to people interested in the case and although it can be frustrating for those of us who have been here for some time and know our way around the evidence, I do feel we ought to try to point new posters in the right direction when they ask questions.  There is so much information posted here now that it is not as easy as it used to be to find the relevant information. 

[shonapugs]

YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.

Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.

How dare you be so rude to a new member, smiffy, you intolerable little man?

[Newbury1]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!

And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually 

[bob]

YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.

Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.

Ignore him Steve.
Everybody else does.

[Alias]

YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.

Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.

Ignore him Steve.
Everybody else does.

That was EXTREMELY rude of Smiffy. I would suggest that he apologizes to Steve who comes across as a very nice poster! Good grief, Smiffy!
I have Smiffs on ignore and only occasionally read his posts - you can see the reason for that here! 

[grahameb]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!

And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually 

I wonder why the hitman hasn't every been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?

[smiffy]

This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman Ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, I'm sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.

If this event was undertaken by JB or an accomplice (or both together) NB would be dead first, in effect taking out the person most capable of fighting back.

However as we do not know the sequence of deaths perhaps NB was killed first.

In Shona's post on "Mike, whilst your on here" she suggests "More likely (again IMO) that Ralph was hit when he opened the kitchen door, because of the outside dog barking. That disabled him long enough for the assailant to run upstairs, shoot the boys, shoot June, then return to Ralph and shoot him. All the time, Sheila was in her room, paralysed with fear. She was found last, dragged to her parent's room (hence the marks on her arm) and executed on the floor."

I'm not fully convinced of JB's guilt as it is clear that there are very questionable issues relating to the verdict, but I would like to play a little devils advocate and suggest the following - for discussion purposes only (and no doubt a few smites  )

In this scenario JB has left the Anschutz and Brno in an outbuilding with as many preloaded magazines as possible (this maybe three magazines carrying up to 25 bullets (and one bullet already in each rifles breach)

JB and an accomplice use the accomplices vehicle to park near whf.

They both approach the kitchen door of whf in overalls, and the dog outside is barking. NB gets out of bed, goes to the kitchen and  opens the door. NB is shot (wounded), he staggers back into the kitchen and holds on to the work surface leaving the bloody finger prints, he tries moving back upstairs and smears blood on the hall wall, but is caught, dragged back into the kitchen, beaten and killed. The assailant suffers no significant marks.

Whilst one deals with NB the other rushes upstairs. June and SC are petrified. The boys remain asleep. One assailant moves quickly to shoot and kill June. An assailant then drags SC in to the main bedroom and shoots SC (in a preplanned attempt to make it look like a suicide in order to throw the police). The other or same assailant moves into the boys room and kills them.

Using ngb's reference as to how quick the shots could have been fired (Anschutz 3 rounds a second and the Brno bolt action 1 round a second) it would not have taken two people with a rifle each to kill all five pretty quickly (and this scenario does not involve a lot of loading whilst killing) .

The accomplice leaves by the kitchen door, JB, after lifting the phone off the handset, locks the kitchen door from the inside and leaves whf by a "self locking" window. They get back to the car change back into clean clothes. The accomplice drives JB back to near his home and JB slips back into Goldhanger. The accomplice takes the bloodied clothes away and burns them.

All this has happened I would say between 12 midnight and 1pm, leaving JB time to shower/compose himself before calling the police at c. 3.26am.

JB has no reason to disclose this scenario as it would do him no good, and the accomplice (having been done out of his pay due to JB's conviction) has gone abroad and tells no one.

Pargetter realising his Brno was at the farm on the night (and that this might implicate him) removes his gun as soon as possible and lies about its whereabouts on the night.

EP did not pursue this, as a two gun scenario would overcomplicate an already bungled and over
complicated situation, and set about creating a scenario to convict JB for a crime, after being duped by the 4 murders and a suicide set up, they came to believe he was involved with.

As for the bible, as it had a bookmark in the relevant page the perpetrators simply opened it that point to rest on SC (just fluke that it was that page!!)

This is a discussion scenario only and one that I do not totally believe in because it seems every scenario has a hole or two in it, but I thought I would give it a go 

I have my hands up so don't shoot 

As you can imagine your scenario can be ripped to pieces.  You need time for blood to dry on the bedroom floor for starters to cater for no blood on Sheila's feet or clothes from when June wandered around the bedroom and a time gap for June to wander around the bedroom. You also need to cater for the phone calls that were made that the police have itemised logs from BT for that they refuse to make public but are listed in documentation on this forum.

The bloodied wallpaper is so isolated and does not have corresponding blood splashes on the floor ..hence they appear faked or possible caused by someone with bloodstained clothes at some time or a bloodstained body but no real injury.
The shot to June's left breast was a very personal thing JB or a hitman would not deliver or even think of delivering.
The bible was placed twice.
There needs to be a time gap between the first and second shots to Sheila to account for blood drying and clotting from the first wound and transferring to the second wound when Sheila was moved...and also the necklace moving at a later stage.
You also need to include the bruising and gouge marks on Ralph's arm which seem to fit with being made by Sheila when Ralph was alive. They were certainly not made by a rifle barrel.
Then you need to account for why they changed June's position on the floor.

etc etc etc.

[shonapugs]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!

And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually 

I wonder why the hitman hasn't every been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?

Do you expect him to come forward, Grahame?