ABO grouping of highly-dilute blood by the absorption-elution technique

[BarefootDanC]

I have already answered this.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10914.msg505027.html#msg505027

On top of that, a statement from Rivlin agreeing he was ineffective would help. I have tried to contact Rivlin but to no avail.

How was Rivin QC ineffective?

[David1819]

How was Rivin QC ineffective?

We have already gone over this.

The narrative he used as the foundation of the defence on the silencer evidence, effectively confined the entire cross-examination of the prosecution's witnesses to the prosecution's terrain.

Hayward stated there was a "remote possibility" that the blood in the silencer was a mixture of blood from Nevill and Junes.  Rivlin's strategy was to work Haywards own concession from "remote possibility" of mixture to "real possibility" essentially making the jury believe that blood had genuinely entered the silencer through the shooting, but arguing it was misidentified as Sheila's.

Hayward was a scientist who could only speak to what the blood tests showed. The relatives were the witnesses who where alleging how the silencer got to police in the condition it was in. In those circumstances any effective lawyer could question Hayward along the lines of "was this blood legitimately in the silencer at all, given who handled it before police collected it?" and sooner or later elicit an answer along the lines of "I don't know".

[BarefootDanC]

In those circumstances any effective lawyer could question Hayward along the lines of "was this blood legitimately in the silencer at all, given who handled it before police collected it? and sooner or later elicit an answer along the lines of "I don't know".

He could say that, but would ordinary people believe that?

Moreover, the judge and the prosecution could point out that there was ample other evidence that the silencer was on the gun during the killings.

[Cambridgecutie]

Back from the weekend food shop. Time and date stamped in-case of any doubt.

You are as clueless about food/drink nutrition as you are the blood evidence in JB's case.  Erdinger alcohol  free beer has a high sugar content.  From your bestie AI because you are so lacking in authentic intelligence:

Erdinger alcoholic lagers (such as Brauhaus Helles) are very low in sugar, typically containing less than 0.5g per 100ml. Conversely, Erdinger Alkoholfrei (non-alcoholic) contains higher sugar levels, approximately 3.2g to 3.6g per 100ml, as the fermentation process is stopped early.

Erdinger Brauhaus Helles (Lager): Carbohydrates 2.7g, Sugars <0.5g (per 100ml).
Erdinger Weissbier (Wheat Beer): Carbohydrates 2.6g, Sugars <0.5g (per 100ml).
Erdinger Alkoholfrei (Non-alcoholic): Carbohydrates 4.6g-5.3g, Sugars 3.2g-3.6g (per 100ml). A 500ml bottle contains about 16g-18g of sugar.
Erdinger Kristall: Carbohydrates 3g, Sugars <0.5g (per 100ml).

[Cambridgecutie]

Since the blood inside the moderator yielded no PGM results I asked Claude if it was the most susceptible to degradation and dilution.


"The Honest Answer: No, PGM Is Not the Most Labile
In the forensic serology literature of that era, the broadly accepted stability ranking was roughly:

ABO          — most stable (antigen-based)
   
AK            — very stable
   
PGM           — moderately stable, generally ROBUST
   
EAP           — less stable than PGM
     
Hp            — least stable (serum protein)

PGM was actually valued by forensic scientists precisely because it was relatively robust in aged or degraded stains. It was one of the workhorses of the FSS panel because it tended to survive conditions that compromised other markers.

If the laboratory tested in the sequence ABO > EAP > AK > Hp > PGM, and the flake was small, the physical sample may simply have been consumed before PGM testing. This isn't degradation at all — it's a sequencing and quantity problem. If true, it means the scientist used up limited material on less discriminating markers before attempting the most discriminating one. That is a significant methodological criticism. The correct approach with a small or precious sample would arguably have been to prioritise PGM above EAP and AK given its superior discriminating power."

I know analytical thinking and logic are not your strong points so I will assist you.  Here's the table of blood test results. In this case, from a prosecution perspective, which tests do you think were most important and why?

                                  ABO   PGM            EAP         AK       Hp           

Nevill Bamber                 O     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1     Hp2-1
June Bamber                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK2-1   Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell                  O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Nicholas Caffell              O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Sheila Caffell                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1      Hp2-1

[Cambridgecutie]

We have already gone over this.

The narrative he used as the foundation of the defence on the silencer evidence, effectively confined the entire cross-examination of the prosecution's witnesses to the prosecution's terrain.

Hayward stated there was a "remote possibility" that the blood in the silencer was a mixture of blood from Nevill and Junes.  Rivlin's strategy was to work Haywards own concession from "remote possibility" of mixture to "real possibility" essentially making the jury believe that blood had genuinely entered the silencer through the shooting, but arguing it was misidentified as Sheila's.

Hayward was a scientist who could only speak to what the blood tests showed. The relatives were the witnesses who where alleging how the silencer got to police in the condition it was in. In those circumstances any effective lawyer could question Hayward along the lines of "was this blood legitimately in the silencer at all, given who handled it before police collected it? and sooner or later elicit an answer along the lines of "I don't know".

You are confusing "the police" with a lone officer by the name of DS Jones.

Is there any robust evidence of the relatives contacting the police confirming they found the silencer with blood, paint, hair and scratch on it?  Or did all this mysteriously come about when it fell into the hands of DS Jones?  Please think about it very carefully without your usual knee jerk reaction...what robust evidence exists that the relatives contacted the police about the blood, paint, hair and scratch before it fell into the hands of DS Jones?

You are unable/unwilling to take on board the blood, paint, hair and scratch on the outside of the silencer and the blood supposedly found inside are fabrications carried out by different individuals at different times. 

[Adam]

You are confusing "the police" with a lone officer by the name of DS Jones.

Is there any robust evidence of the relatives contacting the police confirming they found the silencer with blood, paint, hair and scratch on it?  Or did all this mysteriously come about when it fell into the hands of DS Jones?  Please think about it very carefully without your usual knee jerk reaction...what robust evidence exists that the relatives contacted the police about the blood, paint, hair and scratch before it fell into the hands of DS Jones?

You are unable/unwilling to take on board the blood, paint, hair and scratch on the outside of the silencer and the blood supposedly found inside are fabrications carried out by different individuals at different times.

It ia in there WS's.

Why would they hand in a silencer with nothing on?

[Cambridgecutie]

He could say that, but would ordinary people believe that?

Moreover, the judge and the prosecution could point out that there was ample other evidence that the silencer was on the gun during the killings.

Rivlin should have been more curious which hopefully would have led to a much deeper dive and calling in experts from the US who were undoubtedly better placed to assist the defence on the basis of firearms licencing laws between the two countries. 

Would ordinary people believe blood stains found on the outside of the rifle, arguably of much better quality than the flake found inside a month later, since they did not have to withstand the heat and gsr from firearm discharge, humiditity from the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber and were tested a month before the flake supposedly found inside and yet we are told by FSS were unable to yield any sort of result beyond confirmation that what appeared to be blood was in fact blood and human in origin.  This to my mind should have set alarm bells ringing. 

[Cambridgecutie]

It ia in there WS's.

AE's WS of 14th Aug '85 makes no ref to finding the silencer let alone a silencer with contaminants; a fact that was not lost during the COLP investigation.  Nor do her meticulously created cards make reference to the finding of the silencer!  Not until their Sept WS's, after the flake was supposedly found, do the relatives record finding the silencer with contaminants.

Why would they hand in a silencer with nothing on?

RWB wanted it forensically examined for fibres because he had a theory JB cleaned the inside with a tampon 

[David1819]

You are as clueless about food/drink nutrition as you are the blood evidence in JB's case.  Erdinger alcohol  free beer has a high sugar content.  From your bestie AI because you are so lacking in authentic intelligence:

Erdinger alcoholic lagers (such as Brauhaus Helles) are very low in sugar, typically containing less than 0.5g per 100ml. Conversely, Erdinger Alkoholfrei (non-alcoholic) contains higher sugar levels, approximately 3.2g to 3.6g per 100ml, as the fermentation process is stopped early.

Erdinger Brauhaus Helles (Lager): Carbohydrates 2.7g, Sugars <0.5g (per 100ml).
Erdinger Weissbier (Wheat Beer): Carbohydrates 2.6g, Sugars <0.5g (per 100ml).
Erdinger Alkoholfrei (Non-alcoholic): Carbohydrates 4.6g-5.3g, Sugars 3.2g-3.6g (per 100ml). A 500ml bottle contains about 16g-18g of sugar.
Erdinger Kristall: Carbohydrates 3g, Sugars <0.5g (per 100ml).

Oh my god. I only put my wristwatch in the photo to hide the bold letters "alcohol free" on the bottles (ngb must have been panicking) and yet you still knew!  A beer expert via consistent high alcohol consumption!

Good thing this caught my attention after I scrolled without logging in. That's hilarious 😂😂

[Adam]

AE's WS of 14th Aug '85 makes no ref to finding the silencer let alone a silencer with contaminants; a fact that was not lost during the COLP investigation.  Nor do her meticulously created cards make reference to the finding of the silencer!  Not until their Sept WS's, after the flake was supposedly found, do the relatives record finding the silencer with contaminants.

RWB wanted it forensically examined for fibres because he had a theory JB cleaned the inside with a tampon 

They testified they found the silencer. Together with there September WS's.

Why would they hand in a silencer with nothing on?

[ngb1066]

Oh my god. I only put my wrist watch in the photo to hide the bold letters "alcohol free" on the bottles (ngb must have been panicking) and yet you still knew!  A beer expert via consistent high alcohol consumption!

Good thing this caught my attention after I scrolled without logging in. That's hilarious 😂😂

I was really panicking, because I was really shocked that your weekly shop might include three bottles of lager!  I was plucking up courage to send you a PM suggesting that you contact your local AA group.  I am so relieved that this is not necessary.

[Adam]

Both sides agree Sheila received contact shots and that Jeremy would use a silencer in a 3am ambush.

Both sides agree in back spatter & that there was no blood in the rifle nozzle.

Obviously Sheila's blood in the silencer.

[Adam]

Both sides also agree there was a huge struggle in the kitchen.

Nevill would attempt to reclaim the rifle as he was being hit by it. Resulting in the scratches.

[David1819]

He could say that, but would ordinary people believe that?

Moreover, the judge and the prosecution could point out that there was ample other evidence that the silencer was on the gun during the killings.

Ordinary people do believe it both on and off the forum after looking at the evidence.

Moreover, the judge and the prosecution could point out that there was ample other evidence that the silencer was on the gun during the killings.

The scratches being made after August 7th would be argued also.  There was ample other evidence the silencer was not on the gun, muzzle imprints, lack of twins blood and marks on Nevills back and forearm. All could not be absorbed by the jury properly because of how the defence case was presented.