Colour of burns

[snow66!]

To be honest, Snow, I don’t have access to an Aga either,  but I don’t need one to see what’s in the picture.  You’ve given the handle measurement. Now take the centre of the neck and its distance from the floor.

Head on the floor.  Drain tap where it is.  The drain tap acts as a stop. And The first contact fixes the position, and once it does, the neck can’t reach the handle,  both  distance and height wise, and it doesn’t matter whether he then lies there for four hours unconscious or asleep it makes no difference.

Why does Nevills head need to be on the floor, HB? Cant he be lying with his legs facing into the room to save him from completely falling over onto his side? Maybe he had his knees up to, sort of pushing him against the Aga to hold him in place?
Its impossible to know what position you would fall into after being knocked out?

[Hardy Boy]

To be honest, Snow, I don’t have access to an Aga either,  but I don’t need one to see what’s in the picture.  You’ve given the handle measurement. Now take the centre of the neck and its distance from the floor.

Head on the floor.  Drain tap where it is.  The drain tap acts as a stop. And The first contact fixes the position, and once it does, the neck can’t reach the handle,  both  distance and height wise, and it doesn’t matter whether he then lies there for four hours unconscious or asleep it makes no difference.

from the Doc Maker… Within a few weeks I returned with Philip Walker from the campaign team to conduct a rudimentary experiment with a pigs leg. From our findings we then sent more information to Boyce( and then a couple of months later we all returned to conduct the experiment.

Did this mean they roasted another pig to do another test, I don’t think so, Boyce was there for promoting the video and measuring, he’s all over the Aga and no sign of the roast. The doc maker makes the claim the handles were too hot and that’s why he can’t fix that position on the neck, why not do the measuring before the Aga is switched on, and did Boyce wait over four hours to roast the Pig when the result had already been sent?

The documentary maker rests his head on the oven door,  but can’t make contact with the handles, Boyce handles and measures the Aga freely and we’re asked to believe the handles were too hot to fix the position. 

[snow66!]

from the Doc Maker… Within a few weeks I returned with Philip Walker from the campaign team to conduct a rudimentary experiment with a pigs leg. From our findings we then sent more information to Boyce( and then a couple of months later we all returned to conduct the experiment.

Did this mean they roasted another pig to do another test, I don’t think so, Boyce was there for promoting the video and measuring, he’s all over the Aga and no sign of the roast. The doc maker makes the claim the handles were too hot and that’s why he can’t fix that position on the neck, why not do the measuring before the Aga is switched on, and did Boyce wait over four hours to roast the Pig when the result had already been sent?

The documentary maker rests his head on the oven door,  but can’t make contact with the handles, Boyce handles and measures the Aga freely and we’re asked to believe the handles were too hot to fix the position.

I'ii have another look at the doc-maker article, HB!

[Hardy Boy]

Why does Nevills head need to be on the floor, HB? Cant he be lying with his legs facing into the room to save him from completely falling over onto his side? Maybe he had his knees up to, sort of pushing him against the Aga to hold him in place?
Its impossible to know what position you would fall into after being knocked out?

Fatal Snow, upright vertical Neville alters the contact points alignment, it needs a horizontal Neville I’m afraid, they follow the spine remember!

[Hardy Boy]

I'ii have another look at the doc-maker article, HB!

Ok, see if you think the pig is being roasted when he’s there or before?

[snow66!]

Fatal Snow, upright vertical Neville alters the contact points alignment, it needs a horizontal Neville I’m afraid, they follow the spine remember!

Not exactly, HB! We are not dealing with three points in a straight line nor the same size!
The doc-maker is claiming the top of the handle caused the top burn going by the angles of it.
The next point is roughly an inch or so wide, so again, not tied by one particular area.
The third part, the ball catch kind of bit is smaller so we are tied with it.
In other words, if you follow the line from the catch to the top most part of the handle this would allow for Nevill sitting up slightly and keep the marks in the middle of his back, HB!
Look at the picture showing the hot Aga parts along with the burns to Nevills back and imagine going from the first mark to the top of the handle in a straight line! Although, if you notice, the top mark is not quite in line with the other two which makes sense to me!
I think its possible, HB!

[Hardy Boy]

Not exactly, HB! We are not dealing with three points in a straight line nor the same size!
The doc-maker is claiming the top of the handle caused the top burn going by the angles of it.
The next point is roughly an inch or so wide, so again, not tied by one particular area.
The third part, the ball catch kind of bit is smaller so we are tied with it.
In other words, if you follow the line from the catch to the top most part of the handle this would allow for Nevill sitting up slightly and keep the marks in the middle of his back, HB!
Look at the picture showing the hot Aga parts along with the burns to Nevills back and imagine going from the first mark to the top of the handle in a straight line! Although, if you notice, the top mark is not quite in line with the other two which makes sense to me!
I think its possible, HB!

Sorry Snow, I’m struggling to picture the position you’re describing.

You said his legs were facing into the room,  which is towards the table. That places his back against the Aga.  Picture him sat with his back against the Aga then and sat up and how the contact points align?  Your sitting him upright, it would be hard just to align his neck into this position?   Or am I picturing it wrong?

[snow66!]

Sorry Snow, I’m struggling to picture the position you’re describing.

You said his legs were facing into the room,  which is towards the table. That places his back against the Aga.  Picture him sat with his back against the Aga then and how the contact points align?  Your sitting him upright, it would be hard just to align his neck into this position?   Or am I picturing it wrong?

Yes, legs towards the table but also leaning to the right, almost on his side, HB!
But really, without having access to an Aga it is pointless guessing exactly what position you need to be in to replicate the marks!
It is up to Philip Boyce to show us the position needed!
Do you hear that, Phil? We need a wee bit more info, sir!!
A follow up video please!

[Hardy Boy]

Yes, legs towards the table but also leaning to the right, almost on his side, HB!
But really, without having access to an Aga it is pointless guessing exactly what position you need to be in to replicate the marks!
It is up to Philip Boyce to show us the position needed!
Do you hear that, Phil? We need a wee bit more info, sir!!
A follow up video please!

Oh got you now Snow, you mean torso running along the Aga and legs facing outwards?

Good point, but turning the legs away would normally pull the body away, not push it in tighter. Unless Nevill was doing Aga Yoga

At the end of the day Snow, we have to go with what was put to the CCRC and what we’re shown in the video. Sheila’s on trial here, so before we start inventing positions and timelines, there are some questions that have to be answered.

Take a hard look at the photo, for me it’s impossible for the middle of the neck to align with that handle,  both in height and in contact. The drain tap acts as a stop, and the handle is simply too high to reach the centre of the neck.

Then consider this,  the police moving Nevill. Ask yourself why. Why move him from an “out of the way” position into an “in the way” position, and then balance him on a chair with his head in a coal scuttle?

And the blood pooling,  Pooling doesn’t switch itself on like a switch. Neville lying dead for over four hours and then moved doesn’t suddenly produce pooling, we’re bypassing the first four hours dead, and Four hours is a long time.

Now back to Boyce. You’re right,  he’s the expert,  a very simple question,  was there really any need to roast two pigs? Boyce was supposedly there to measure and add weight to the findings. Would an expert seriously turn the Aga up red hot while he’s leaning over it measuring and with the doc maker  pressing himself against it? Maybe, but why not measure while it’s cold?  I think the “too hot to position correctly” line is just there to excuse the altered posture, the one where the stooge lifts himself up into a position, a dead body simply couldn’t reach.

Think about that famous line, but apply it to what’s claimed
If the neck don’t fit… you have to acquit. 

[Hardy Boy]

Yes I went to a Genesis concert at Wembley after he had moved on and Phil Collins was doing more of the vocals. I like all music from Classical to Grime. Am going to watch an Egyptian group called Cairokee later this year.
Cheers Bubo

That must have been amazing to see Genesis live. Gabriel was far more theatrical in the early days, and Collins was brilliant,   not just as a drummer, but as a frontman too.

“Supper’s Ready” is a masterpiece: around 23 minutes long, split into seven sections, and it never feels like it drags on, it just takes you with it.

And Peter Gabriel’s So album,  with hits like “Sledgehammer” and “In Your Eyes”, plus the Kate Bush duet “Don’t Give Up.” ( I like it better with Paula Clark though)  Although I didn’t realise at the time, but Looking back, you can hear how personal it was too for him.

[Jonathan]

Yes, legs towards the table but also leaning to the right, almost on his side, HB!
But really, without having access to an Aga it is pointless guessing exactly what position you need to be in to replicate the marks!
It is up to Philip Boyce to show us the position needed!
Do you hear that, Phil? We need a wee bit more info, sir!!
A follow up video please!

Why did the police position Neville.as found - and with his pyjama trousers pulled down? Almost seems like some sort of macabre joke.

[Hardy Boy]

Why did the police position Neville.as found - and with his pyjama trousers pulled down? Almost seems like some sort of macabre joke.

Correct and If there was no move, you can’t prove.  The Aga theory then falls flat!

[snow66!]

Why did the police position Neville.as found - and with his pyjama trousers pulled down? Almost seems like some sort of macabre joke.

Yes, gallows humour or fear of Nevill catching fire according to the doc-maker, Jonathan!
Although moving Nevill one inch away from the Aga would have saved him igniting and preserved the crime scene too.
As for gallows humour, I wouldn't know.

[Hardy Boy]

Yes, gallows humour or fear of Nevill catching fire according to the doc-maker, Jonathan!
Although moving Nevill one inch away from the Aga would have saved him igniting and preserved the crime scene too.
As for gallows humour, I wouldn't know.

That “gallows humour” line is one of the most ridiculous, reckless things ever pushed.

[snow66!]

Oh got you now Snow, you mean torso running along the Aga and legs facing outwards?

Good point, but turning the legs away would normally pull the body away, not push it in tighter. Unless Nevill was doing Aga Yoga

At the end of the day Snow, we have to go with what was put to the CCRC and what we’re shown in the video. Sheila’s on trial here, so before we start inventing positions and timelines, there are some questions that have to be answered.

Take a hard look at the photo, for me it’s impossible for the middle of the neck to align with that handle,  both in height and in contact. The drain tap acts as a stop, and the handle is simply too high to reach the centre of the neck.

Then consider this,  the police moving Nevill. Ask yourself why. Why move him from an “out of the way” position into an “in the way” position, and then balance him on a chair with his head in a coal scuttle?

And the blood pooling,  Pooling doesn’t switch itself on like a switch. Neville lying dead for over four hours and then moved doesn’t suddenly produce pooling, we’re bypassing the first four hours dead, and Four hours is a long time.

Now back to Boyce. You’re right,  he’s the expert,  a very simple question,  was there really any need to roast two pigs? Boyce was supposedly there to measure and add weight to the findings. Would an expert seriously turn the Aga up red hot while he’s leaning over it measuring and with the doc maker  pressing himself against it? Maybe, but why not measure while it’s cold?  I think the “too hot to position correctly” line is just there to excuse the altered posture, the one where the stooge lifts himself up into a position, a dead body simply couldn’t reach.

Think about that famous line, but apply it to what’s claimed
If the neck don’t fit… you have to acquit.

Trouble is, unlike OJ.,and the glove, we dont have the actual neck available to fit into the Aga, HB!
I think Boyce's main aim was to replicate the marks on the pig skin to prove that the Aga was responsible for burning Nevills neck.
Obviously he couldn't burn a living human being even if he could position him right, that is probably why he didn't bother to place a makeshift plinth for the volunteer to lie on.
Obviously Philip Boyce thinks the picture of the Aga parts and Nevills neck side by side is sufficient proof that the Aga was responsible!
And to be quite honest, that is the main thing, the mark replication by the Aga handles, HB!