Fight between Sheila and June

[Steve_uk]

Why was it unfair? Please post the summing up.

This is dealt with in Chapter 38 of Blood Relations. It's quite clear that Mr Justice Drake considered Bamber guilty. It's suggested that he thought the soft-spoken Anthony Arlidge hadn't done a thorough job and Drake himself was making up for the discrepancy. He favours Julie on balance, he casts doubts on the purported telephone call from Nevill, he goes into detail on the silencer and the unlikely event of Sheila shooting herself and returning it to the gun cupboard, on her mental illness he quotes Dr. Ferguson as doubting she would have killed Nevill or the twins, he says the blood in the silencer was specific to Sheila, then adds John Hayward had said it could have been a mixture of Nevill and June's, but "the chances were remote."

There are other points too, which went against Bamber: the fight with Nevill in the kitchen and Sheila's apparent cleanliness, the Osea Road burglary he linked to a willingness to trust Julie, Jeremy's motive of inheritance, the sequence of telephone calls, whether or not he had telephoned Witham Police Station, the hacksaw blade found lying near the kitchen window.

[BarefootDanC]

This is dealt with in Chapter 38 of Blood Relations. It's quite clear that Mr Justice Drake considered Bamber guilty. It's suggested that he thought the soft-spoken Anthony Arlidge hadn't done a thorough job and Drake himself was making up for the discrepancy. He favours Julie on balance, he casts doubts on the purported telephone call from Nevill, he goes into detail on the silencer and the unlikely event of Sheila shooting herself and returning it to the gun cupboard, on her mental illness he quotes Dr. Ferguson as doubting she would have killed Nevill or the twins, he says the blood in the silencer was specific to Sheila, then adds John Hayward had said it could have been a mixture of Nevill and June's, but "the chances were remote."

There are other points too, which went against Bamber: the fight with Nevill in the kitchen and Sheila's apparent cleanliness, the Osea Road burglary he linked to a willingness to trust Julie, Jeremy's motive of inheritance, the sequence of telephone calls, whether or not he had telephoned Witham Police Station, the hacksaw blade found lying near the kitchen window.

Every single point you say - fully justified. It might seem biased towards the prosecution, but that's because the facts of the case really were stacked against him.

[ILB]

For me he didnt help himself with osea. He should have been forthcoming from thr start and said greed was the main factor.

The highlighting of security although he may have had a genuine grievance with it, was not the reason he took the money. We all know that.

However I do tend to believe he may have been motivated to do so because he felt he was being treated unfairly getting less than AE.

[Steve_uk]

For me he didnt help himself with osea. He should have been forthcoming from thr start and said greed was the main factor.

The highlighting of security although he may have had a genuine grievance with it, was not the reason he took the money. We all know that.

However I do tend to believe he may have been motivated to do so because he felt he was being treated unfairly getting less than AE.

In one of the books it mentions Nevill was going to pay the £900 straight in to the bank, but Jeremy persuaded him to leave it in the office safe overnight. Apparently there were more takings than usual on that particular occasion. It suggests at that late stage in March 1985 son had the upper hand over father, just as the tables had been turned with the relationship with his mother.

Other inconsistencies (or downright lies) were Jeremy's assertions re: parents that there had been no problems in their relationship, that he had been target shooting with his sister, that he had telephoned Witham Police Station, whether or not he told PC Lay about a £28000 car he was going to buy before the siege had been concluded, that he told cousin Ann that Sheila "had been on the hard stuff", that she had punched one of the twins on a car journey.

It's always difficult to analyse Jeremy's statements, containing as they sometimes do grains of truth interwoven with a tissue of lies.

[Hardy Boy]

In one of the books it mentions Nevill was going to pay the £900 straight in to the bank, but Jeremy persuaded him to leave it in the office safe overnight. Apparently there were more takings than usual on that particular occasion. It suggests at that late stage in March 1985 son had the upper hand over father, just as the tables had been turned with the relationship with his mother.

Other inconsistencies (or downright lies) were Jeremy's assertions re: parents that there had been no problems in their relationship, that he had been target shooting with his sister, that he had telephoned Witham Police Station, whether or not he told PC Lay about a £28000 car he was going to buy before the siege had been concluded, that he told cousin Ann that Sheila "had been on the hard stuff", that she had punched one of the twins on a car journey.

It's always difficult to analyse Jeremy's statements, containing as they sometimes do grains of truth interwoven with a tissue of lies.

He realised he might not get a second chance at the money Steve, persuading his father to leave the money was part of his planning, just like he realised it had to be that night for the murders, Sheila and the boy’s attending was the perfect time.

It was always going to end bad for him one way or another,  especially as his crimes escalated,  Neville and June would have cut him off at sometime.

Each one of his crimes shows he put his trust in Julie, this shows to me she was more involved in the murder’s than she makes out,   Julie was there to bounce his ideas off and to offer encouragement.   Not many woman would stand guard while their partner steals £900 from the family safe and sell drugs for their partner.   She had to have a criminal mind set to do this.  Julie was as Greedy as Bamber and prepared to take these sort of risks, she showed this with the cheque book fraud.

[ILB]

He realised he might not get a second chance at the money Steve, persuading his father to leave the money was part of his planning, just like he realised it had to be that night for the murders, Sheila and the boy’s attending was the perfect time.

It was always going to end bad for him one way or another,  especially as his crimes escalated,  Neville and June would have cut him off at sometime.

Each one of his crimes shows he put his trust in Julie, this shows to me she was more involved in the murder’s than she makes out,   Julie was there to bounce his ideas off and to offer encouragement.   Not many woman would stand guard while their partner steals £900 from the family safe and sell drugs for their partner.   She had to have a criminal mind set to do this.  Julie was as Greedy as Bamber and prepared to take these sort of risks, she showed this with the cheque book fraud.

She was 100 percent on board from start to finish. She only went to the coppers because he jilted her.

To be honest even if they had stayed together eventually Jeremy would have left her and she would have gone down ghe same route.

For me I believe he was always going to come a cropper for the crimes. It was just a case of when.

[BarefootDanC]

She was 100 percent on board from start to finish. She only went to the coppers because he jilted her.

To be honest even if they had stayed together eventually Jeremy would have left her and she would have gone down ghe same route.

For me I believe he was always going to come a cropper for the crimes. It was just a case of when.

Glad to hear that you have come over to the guilty side.

[Adam]

Julie left Bamber on the 27th August. To return to the job and degree she had been abruptly taken away from on the 7th August.

She tried to leave him on the 17th August but he said he needed her.

Brett arriving on the scene on the 13th August speeded up things. Her WS says she didn't feel Bamber needed her anymore. 

Wonder how much longer they would have stayed together if Brett had not arrived. The longer Julie left it, the harder it would have been to approach the police.

[Jane]

She was 100 percent on board from start to finish. She only went to the coppers because he jilted her.

To be honest even if they had stayed together eventually Jeremy would have left her and she would have gone down ghe same route.

For me I believe he was always going to come a cropper for the crimes. It was just a case of when.

I will say no more than once whatever had tied them together had been severed,  whatever the reason, she'd no longer feel the need to support/protect him. It would have become "You're on your own now! You can paddle your own canoe"

[Steve_uk]

Re: the above posts. Jeremy felt trapped in the farming way of life: long hours, not sufficient remuneration to support his lavish lifestyle, lack of appreciation and grumbles from Nevill he wouldn't do overtime. I don't think there was any definite plan growing up; surrounded by the children of the landed gentry at Gresham's he would be pretty low in the social pecking order, nor would he have felt comfortable academically in that stuffy male-dominated environment. He went through the motions, with no real plan or ulterior motive, sensing his father's disappointment at his academic prowess, attempting an escape of sorts with the Little Chef job at Rivenhall End, then working at Sloppy Joe's in Colchester and helping out odd times at the Frog and Beans.

It is difficult to say how the petty crime of drug dealing and stealing money from the caravan park escalated into mass murder. Maybe as he witnessed his mother's breakdown in 1982 and his sister's two breakdowns, followed by Nevill's bout of illness requiring him to relinquish the magistrate's job, it started out with him getting ideas beyond his station. To his mind he was the only one unaffected by malady, though maybe cognitive distortions came into play when claiming Nicholas and Daniel would grow up disturbed, the reality being that he may have been jealous that Sheila had provided issue where he himself had failed.

As for Julie, she was swept along in a maelstrom of emotion I doubt most males could comprehend, in love as she was and not wanting to confront the reality of what he was confiding in her. So sad that she was on teaching practice at a difficult time for the education profession (one recalls Margaret Thatcher being refused an honorary degree at Oxford in January 1985 for the alleged damage she had caused) as her mind struggled with competing demands for her attention, and she tragically made the wrong choice.

[Steve_uk]

I will say no more than once whatever had tied them together had been severed,  whatever the reason, she'd no longer feel the need to support/protect him. It would have become "You're on your own now! You can paddle your own canoe"

I think she started to pity him, when she sensed he no longer needed her, which was her rationale for staying with him for so long. Maybe had he obtained the services of a psychiatrist, just as Sheila had requested Colin to do whilst modelling in Japan, the outcome may have been different. But far from him expressing regret or remorse for the slayings as Julie might secretly have hoped, he was ready to continue his laddish lifestyle, and it was this in my opinion which finally tipped the balance and drove her reluctantly into the arms of police.

[ILB]

Glad to hear that you have come over to the guilty side.

Not at all, I have never had a side and been a fence sitter from the outset. Im just able to look at the case straight down the middle. Appreciate not every can do this.

[ILB]

I will say no more than once whatever had tied them together had been severed,  whatever the reason, she'd no longer feel the need to support/protect him. It would have become "You're on your own now! You can paddle your own canoe"

Had Jeremy gotten away with it lets say in August of 85, the murder suicide verdict accepted for me it wouldn't have been the end of the road.

The relatives would have kept plugging away, allegiances would change i.e Julie like I said and I actually believe Jeremy himself would have dug his own hole eventually, drunken bragging etc. He may have enjoyed some years of freedom but eventually I believe a 2nd investigation would have started and he would have been brought to book.

[Adam]

The forensic evidence was being processed. SJ said he was going to contact Julie and interview her. The relatives were not giving up. Taff had been taken off heading the case. Bamber's lack of remorse and jolly ups had been noted.

So an arrest was coming soon. With Julie either approaching or being approached by the police.

[Adam]

The police approaching Julie, they could give her a mountain of information implicating Bamber. It wouldn't be long until she broke.

Doubt the police had to give her that information as she approached them. Just some gentle encouragement.