Were the jury taken to a shooting range? Was loading demonstrated to the jury?

[BarefootDanC]

Were the jury taken to a shooting range - so that they shoot the same model of rifle which was used in the killings and/or see the difference in sound between with the silencer on and off?

Also, was loading the rifle demonstrated to the jury?

Thanks in advance.

[Curiosity]

Were the jury taken to a shooting range - so that they shoot the same model of rifle which was used in the killings and/or see the difference in sound between with the silencer on and off?

Also, was loading the rifle demonstrated to the jury?

Thanks in advance.

There may be more elsewhere but this is all I can find for now. From CAL's TMAWHF -

"When Dr Ferguson stood down, Mr Justice Drake, the lawyers, and the jury were driven to the firing range at Fingringhoe, south of Colchester, to hear the murder weapon fired with and without a silencer attached. Malcolm Fletcher handled the demonstration, during which the magazine release mechanism jammed."

They were allowed to examine the magazine and loading of it (with blank cartridges possibly?) in Chelmsford Court, but I doubt that any of the jury were authorised/given the chance to fire the Anschutz at Fingringhoe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsyUNfC11WM&ab_channel=LoneSniper762

[Cambridgecutie]

There may be more elsewhere but this is all I can find for now. From CAL's TMAWHF -

"When Dr Ferguson stood down, Mr Justice Drake, the lawyers, and the jury were driven to the firing range at Fingringhoe, south of Colchester, to hear the murder weapon fired with and without a silencer attached. Malcolm Fletcher handled the demonstration, during which the magazine release mechanism jammed."

They were allowed to examine the magazine and loading of it (with blank cartridges possibly?) in Chelmsford Court, but I doubt that any of the jury were authorised/given the chance to fire the Anschutz at Fingringhoe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsyUNfC11WM&ab_channel=LoneSniper762

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/east-region-firing-times

As previously discussed on here a pointless exercise given the killings were carried out inside a farmhouse complete with furniture and soft furnishings which would totally alter the sound. 

If the actual murder weapon was used hardly surprising it jammed given it had been used for unintended purposes.

Given the jury was taken to Fingringhoe why not arrange a further visit to WHF to demonstrate what was alleged by the prosecution re the window(s)?  And a soc reconstruction?  Jurors are often taken to relevant sites.  In this case the only site visited was irrelevant because the killings took place inside not outside which totally alters the sound.

[BarefootDanC]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/east-region-firing-times

As previously discussed on here a pointless exercise given the killings were carried out inside a farmhouse complete with furniture and soft furnishings which would totally alter the sound. 

If the actual murder weapon was used hardly surprising it jammed given it had been used for unintended purposes.

Given the jury was taken to Fingringhoe why not arrange a further visit to WHF to demonstrate what was alleged by the prosecution re the window(s)?  And a soc reconstruction?  Jurors are often taken to relevant sites.  In this case the only site visited was irrelevant because the killings took place inside not outside which totally alters the sound.

Thank you for the information. I have been told on Facebook that even without the silencer on, the rifle being used makes a sound "like a clap".

[Cambridgecutie]

In the case of Tony Martin, Norfolk farmer, Bleak House (Bleak by name, Bleak by nature) August 1999 who shot burglar Fred Barras, killing him in the process, the jury was taken to the farmhouse:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12195401.murder-jury-visits-accused-farmers-house/

The case hinged on whether or not TM used 'reasonable' force to protect himself/property.  Central to this was ballistic and forensic evidence to map out the precise position of TM and the burglars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVKOQM4Q1eo&t=15s

Similar evidence existed in JB's case but was barely looked at.  This was crucial evidence to determine the position of NB and perp when NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds:

- Was the perp around the entrance of the bedroom firing into the bedroom with NB inside the bedroom? Prosecution case.

Or

- Was the perp around the entrance of the bedroom firing onto the landing with NB on the landing? Defence case.

[Cambridgecutie]

Thank you for the information. I have been told on Facebook that even without the silencer on, the rifle being used makes a sound "like a clap".

ngb1066 has first hand experience so better placed to give his opinion. 

Obviously firearms with or without silencers are not designed to be used at close range in farmhouses complete with furnishing and soft furnishings.  Such experiments need to be carried out on a like-for-like basis otherwise a complete waste of time. 

A silencer is not going to alter the sound of the rifles cycling action which would go unnoticed when shooting at distance.

[Cambridgecutie]

Here's the vid I was looking for @ around 45 mins in it features Anthony Scrivener QC and ballistics expert Freddy Mead.  It goes on for about 5 mins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BemcOAg53eM&t=3411s

This is exactly the sort of evidence that needed to be very closely examined in JB's case but it was virtually overlooked.  Freddy Mead was the defence expert at JB's trial.

[Steve_uk]

In the case of Tony Martin, Norfolk farmer, Bleak House (Bleak by name, Bleak by nature) August 1999 who shot burglar Fred Barras, killing him in the process, the jury was taken to the farmhouse:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12195401.murder-jury-visits-accused-farmers-house/

The case hinged on whether or not TM used 'reasonable' force to protect himself/property.  Central to this was ballistic and forensic evidence to map out the precise position of TM and the burglars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVKOQM4Q1eo&t=15s

Similar evidence existed in JB's case but was barely looked at.  This was crucial evidence to determine the position of NB and perp when NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds:

- Was the perp around the entrance of the bedroom firing into the bedroom with NB inside the bedroom? Prosecution case.

Or

- Was the perp around the entrance of the bedroom firing onto the landing with NB on the landing? Defence case.

I don't see any similarities in the two cases, apart from superficial ones.

[Hardy Boy]

ngb1066 has first hand experience so better placed to give his opinion. 

Obviously firearms with or without silencers are not designed to be used at close range in farmhouses complete with furnishing and soft furnishings.  Such experiments need to be carried out on a like-for-like basis otherwise a complete waste of time. 

A silencer is not going to alter the sound of the rifles cycling action which would go unnoticed when shooting at distance.

On average, suppressors reduce the noise of a gunshot by 20 – 35 decibels (dB), roughly the same sound reduction as earplugs or earmuffs.   Maybe  Bamber has never shot indoors, so he might think it wise to use the silencer to muffle the sound best he could so not to disturb those sleeping?   It doesn’t stop noise all together and probably woukd be less noticeable on the smaller calibre rifle, but why take the risk without using one?

Is a suppressor really worth it?

Less Noise

As was explained above, suppressors bring down the decibels that you hear each and every time a gun is shot. Making less noise while shooting is beneficial if there are a lot of people at the shooting range if you're out hunting, or simply if you're trying to do everything possible to preserve your hearing.

[Adam]

Bit of a no brainer using a silencer in a silent massacre attempt.

Daniel/Nicholas & June/Nevill were feet/inches from each other.

Bit strange going to shoot rabbits without one. It would only take seconds to put a silencer on.

[Adam]

The other advantage of a silencer is it made the rifle longer. He can keep his distance more from his targets.

The rifle with silencer would help him reach across the bed and shoot Nevill with the rifle inches from his face.

But he may have just been thinking about the noise advantage. 

[Adam]

There are contradictory claims regarding the rifle power.

Some say it would not be powerful enough to produce back spatter. While simultaneously saying blood would have been dripping out of Nevill's mouth onto his bed instantaneously 

[Adam]

A silencer would not be much help if everyone was in seperate rooms.

WHF was a big unit. The rooms will be big & a fair distance from each other. Across corridors. A box room seperated the twins & Nevill/June.

The doors & walls would be thick.

So unlikely anyone would wake from that rifle without a silencer.

However Daniel & Nicholas were sharing a room & June/Nevill sharing a bed. So the silencer becomes more useful.

[Cambridgecutie]

I don't see any similarities in the two cases, apart from superficial ones.

How many cases in the UK involve killing by firearm within a farmhouse?  When such an incident occurs it produces a mountain of hard data eg blood stains, spent cartridges, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.  This hard data is capable of locating the positions of the perp and victim.

In the case of Tony Martin it was used.  The data supported the prosecution case in that TM used unreasonable force. 

In the case of Jeremy Bamber it was not used.  Had it been used it would have supported the defence case and shown that NB came up the stairs and was shot on the landing when the perp was already in the bedroom having shot June a number of times.  This in turn supports JB's claim of a telephone call ie NB made the call in the kitchen, heard the gunshots upstairs, dropped the phone on the kitchen top and run upstairs where he sustained his facial gunshot wounds on the landing. 

[Curiosity]

How many cases in the UK involve killing by firearm within a farmhouse?  When such an incident occurs it produces a mountain of hard data eg blood stains, spent cartridges, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.  This hard data is capable of locating the positions of the perp and victim.

In the case of Tony Martin it was used.  The data supported the prosecution case in that TM used unreasonable force. 

In the case of Jeremy Bamber it was not used.  Had it been used it would have supported the defence case and shown that NB came up the stairs and was shot on the landing when the perp was already in the bedroom having shot June a number of times.  This in turn supports JB's claim of a telephone call ie NB made the call in the kitchen, heard the gunshots upstairs, dropped the phone on the kitchen top and run upstairs where he sustained his facial gunshot wounds on the landing.

No it does not!  The found position of cartridge cases tells an entirely different story.

Yours sincerely,

Stan (unfortunately underrated and undecorated).