Author Topic: The AGA burns revisited.  (Read 7034 times)

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Offline Rob_

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #120 on: April 21, 2025, 07:22:PM »
Well, DB said they were all in the den/office and was joined by Basil cock and he (DB) was searching the gun cupboard?

More worrying to me is DB said in his WS he saw paint blood on the silencer when he found it at WHF, but at trial it was at AE's house the blood paint was seen?

Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #121 on: April 21, 2025, 07:23:PM »
And you don’t know that DS Jones contaminated the silencer,  we only have your word for this.

The relatives certainly did not contaminate the silencer.  They might have lied about its state when they claim to have found it but they certainly did not contaminate it. 

Either:

- DS Jones went into WHF on 9th Aug and contaminated the silencer for the relatives to find

or, more likely

- DS Jones contaminated the silencer after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat up drinking whisky with PE until the small hours hatching the plan having been promised some cash incentive from PE for doing so. 
Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs

Offline Hardy Boy

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #122 on: April 21, 2025, 07:24:PM »
More worrying to me is DB said in his WS he saw paint blood on the silencer when he found it at WHF, but at trial it was at AE's house the blood paint was seen?
Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?

Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #123 on: April 21, 2025, 07:28:PM »
More worrying to me is DB said in his WS he saw paint blood on the silencer when he found it at WHF, but at trial it was at AE's house the blood paint was seen?

Yes.  They are all very contradictory.  I am more inclined to think DS Jones contaminated the silencer after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat up drinking whisky with PE until the small hours hatching the plan having been promised a cash incentive for doing so.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2025, 07:32:PM by Cambridgecutie »
Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs

Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #124 on: April 21, 2025, 07:31:PM »
Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?

That's a possibility or more likely, given the contradictory statements from the relatives, DS Jones contaminated the silencer after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat up drinking whisky with PE where the pair hatched a plan and PE promised DS Jones a cash incentive. 
Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs

Offline Rob_

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #125 on: April 21, 2025, 07:35:PM »
Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?

Well 25 gunshot wounds and no evidence the silencer was ever on the gun, no one but no one would put the silencer back in the cupboard and if guilty Bamber would never let the relatives have the keys to the house.

It was obviously planted, to me anyway.

Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2025, 07:45:PM »
Well 25 gunshot wounds and no evidence the silencer was ever on the gun, no one but no one would put the silencer back in the cupboard and if guilty Bamber would never let the relatives have the keys to the house.

It was obviously planted, to me anyway.

It was fabricated.  It is a very elaborate hoax.  But it will take some to undermine and your arguments above are very weak.  There is evidence the silencer was on the gun by way of the FSS claiming it found a flake of blood inside the silencer representing SC's blood groups and further claiming it came to be there as a result of the drawback phenomenon. 

Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs

Offline Rob_

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2025, 07:51:PM »
It was fabricated.  It is a very elaborate hoax.  But it will take some to undermine and your arguments above are very weak.  There is evidence the silencer was on the gun by way of the FSS claiming it found a flake of blood inside the silencer representing SC's blood groups and further claiming it came to be there as a result of the drawback phenomenon.

What do you suggest is the way forward Cc? The group which was missing in all the tests shows the blood tested was of low quality? 

Offline snow66!

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2025, 07:52:PM »
I doubt it occurred to him until the moment he realized it was too long to enable Sheila to shoot herself. It was an "Ooops!" moment!
But as Rob keeps saying, why not place it by Sheila on the bedroom floor if thats the case, Jane?
Gee whiz, with all those near contact shots and kitchen scuffle, surely JB would have known the silencer would be contaminated?

Offline Hardy Boy

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #129 on: April 21, 2025, 07:57:PM »
It was fabricated.  It is a very elaborate hoax.  But it will take some to undermine and your arguments above are very weak.  There is evidence the silencer was on the gun by way of the FSS claiming it found a flake of blood inside the silencer representing SC's blood groups and further claiming it came to be there as a result of the drawback phenomenon.
I agree Cutie, there is evidence that the silencer was on the rifle.

Online ILB

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2025, 08:18:PM »
Snow made a request so I will honour it

I asked

Do you believe the AGA theory put forward by Jeremy Bamber can prove his innocence in any perspective COA hearing, or even do you believe it's a valid argument on any basis?

I hope snow is happy with the way I've put the question across

That’s a powerful and complex question—and it cuts to the heart of the current debate around Jeremy Bamber’s long-standing claims of innocence.

Let’s unpack it properly.


---

First: What is the AGA Theory?

The “AGA theory” (so named because of the Rayburn AGA cooker in the White House Farm kitchen) suggests that:

The murder weapon (the rifle) was placed on top of the AGA, and

It could not have been placed there if Jeremy Bamber had removed it earlier in the night (as the prosecution alleged),

Therefore, it must have been Sheila Caffell who used the rifle after Bamber had left, aligning with the original murder-suicide theory.


This theory is used to support the idea that Sheila was alive and capable of committing the killings herself—after Bamber supposedly left the house.


---

Is It a Valid Argument?

Yes, it is a valid line of argument—at least in terms of raising doubt. Here’s why:

1. Challenges Timeline & Narrative

The AGA theory is about sequence of events.

If the rifle ended up on the AGA after the time Bamber is meant to have taken it, it directly contradicts the prosecution's timeline.

That opens the door to reasonable doubt about who handled the weapon last and when.


2. Physical Evidence Isn’t Speculative

The AGA theory is based on crime scene photos—something objective.

It’s not hearsay or witness-based—it’s rooted in the forensic layout of the kitchen.


3. Aligns With Original Police Belief

Remember: Essex Police originally believed it was a murder-suicide by Sheila.

The AGA theory supports that initial view and suggests the scene may have made more sense than it was later painted to.



---

But Will the COA Accept It as Grounds for Appeal?

That’s where it gets harder.

The Challenge:

The Court of Appeal sets an extremely high bar—it’s not just about “could this raise doubt?”

It must be new evidence or show that the original trial was fundamentally flawed.


If the AGA theory can be framed as:

New forensic interpretation not available in 1986, or

Evidence that was misrepresented, misunderstood, or suppressed by police/prosecution,


Then yes, it could form a valid appeal argument.

But...

The COA May Push Back On:

Whether this detail alone proves Sheila was the killer.

Whether the gun’s location could be innocently explained or tampered with.

Whether it actually conflicts with the rest of the forensic evidence (e.g., blood patterns, fingerprints, etc.).



---

So, Could It Prove Bamber’s Innocence?

On its own: unlikely.
In combination with other inconsistencies, withheld evidence, or timeline flaws: potentially, yes.

It's not a silver bullet, but it’s a strategically sound piece of the larger picture—a piece that contradicts the prosecution’s story and supports the original one.


---

Would you like a breakdown of how the AGA theory could be built into a full-scale appeal narrative or how it could be challenged by the Crown?

« Last Edit: April 21, 2025, 08:18:PM by ILB »
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Online ILB

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #131 on: April 21, 2025, 08:20:PM »
It highlights that the AGA argument on its own merit won't prove the convictions unsafe as many of us already know.
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Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #132 on: April 21, 2025, 08:38:PM »
What do you suggest is the way forward Cc? The group which was missing in all the tests shows the blood tested was of low quality?

Question everything!  Was there ever any blood actually inside the silencer!?  Did FSS just produce a set of test results?  Some will say too far fetched! Not when you consider the blood evidence in detail AND the head of FSS at the time went on to be charged with perverting the course of justice in the case of Stefan Kiszko.
Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs

Offline snow66!

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #133 on: April 21, 2025, 08:47:PM »
Snow made a request so I will honour it

I asked

Do you believe the AGA theory put forward by Jeremy Bamber can prove his innocence in any perspective COA hearing, or even do you believe it's a valid argument on any basis?

I hope snow is happy with the way I've put the question across

That’s a powerful and complex question—and it cuts to the heart of the current debate around Jeremy Bamber’s long-standing claims of innocence.

Let’s unpack it properly.


---

First: What is the AGA Theory?

The “AGA theory” (so named because of the Rayburn AGA cooker in the White House Farm kitchen) suggests that:

The murder weapon (the rifle) was placed on top of the AGA, and

It could not have been placed there if Jeremy Bamber had removed it earlier in the night (as the prosecution alleged),

Therefore, it must have been Sheila Caffell who used the rifle after Bamber had left, aligning with the original murder-suicide theory.


This theory is used to support the idea that Sheila was alive and capable of committing the killings herself—after Bamber supposedly left the house.


---

Is It a Valid Argument?

Yes, it is a valid line of argument—at least in terms of raising doubt. Here’s why:

1. Challenges Timeline & Narrative

The AGA theory is about sequence of events.

If the rifle ended up on the AGA after the time Bamber is meant to have taken it, it directly contradicts the prosecution's timeline.

That opens the door to reasonable doubt about who handled the weapon last and when.


2. Physical Evidence Isn’t Speculative

The AGA theory is based on crime scene photos—something objective.

It’s not hearsay or witness-based—it’s rooted in the forensic layout of the kitchen.


3. Aligns With Original Police Belief

Remember: Essex Police originally believed it was a murder-suicide by Sheila.

The AGA theory supports that initial view and suggests the scene may have made more sense than it was later painted to.



---

But Will the COA Accept It as Grounds for Appeal?

That’s where it gets harder.

The Challenge:

The Court of Appeal sets an extremely high bar—it’s not just about “could this raise doubt?”

It must be new evidence or show that the original trial was fundamentally flawed.


If the AGA theory can be framed as:

New forensic interpretation not available in 1986, or

Evidence that was misrepresented, misunderstood, or suppressed by police/prosecution,


Then yes, it could form a valid appeal argument.

But...

The COA May Push Back On:

Whether this detail alone proves Sheila was the killer.

Whether the gun’s location could be innocently explained or tampered with.

Whether it actually conflicts with the rest of the forensic evidence (e.g., blood patterns, fingerprints, etc.).



---

So, Could It Prove Bamber’s Innocence?

On its own: unlikely.
In combination with other inconsistencies, withheld evidence, or timeline flaws: potentially, yes.

It's not a silver bullet, but it’s a strategically sound piece of the larger picture—a piece that contradicts the prosecution’s story and supports the original one.


---

Would you like a breakdown of how the AGA theory could be built into a full-scale appeal narrative or how it could be challenged by the Crown?


Thanks ILB, I think I have managed to log onto chatGPT myself now!
I will ask it directly about the marks to Nevills back.

Offline Hardy Boy

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Re: The AGA burns revisited.
« Reply #134 on: April 21, 2025, 08:48:PM »
Question everything!  Was there ever any blood actually inside the silencer!?  Did FSS just produce a set of test results?  Some will say too far fetched! Not when you consider the blood evidence in detail AND the head of FSS at the time went on to be charged with perverting the course of justice in the case of Stefan Kiszko.
Did Stan quietly let them know he had contaminated the outside of the silencer, and was it a joint enterprise between them all, or was it Stan doing his dirty deeds and then the FSS doing theirs unbeknown to each other?