The AGA burns revisited.

[Rob_]

I don't really think it matters if the Aga proves guilt or innocence, but to me it's a very important piece of the jigsaw of what happened that night.

Personally I think if it's established that the Aga caused the burns the only logical solution is Nevil was lying against it for hours before any shots were fired, as I don't think the police would move Nevil from the Aga to where he was found on the chair.

To me if the Aga is the cause of the burns it strongly points to Sheila as the shooter. All this rubbish about testing for signs of life if Bamber was the shooter and he was not sure he would just let off a few more shots.

[ILB]

That's the evidence.

On a coal scuttle/chair. Three burn marks.

Agree on the upside chair face planted on a coal scuttle.

Disagree the burn marks origin.

[Hardy Boy]

Me, Steve, Hardyboy, Jane, NGB, Scipio & former posters believe it was to check for signs of life.

Bamber had to do something to check for signs of life. Nevill had put up a big fight. But pulse checks are unreliable.

I think he had gloves on and he wouldn’t want to remove them to check for pulse, pulse becomes very weak in a dying person,  the heart slows down and the blood flow is less, making it hard to find.   For me, I would inflict pain and watch for response, we used to pinch the skin as well sometimes when I did competitions for the mines.

[ILB]

I don't really think it matters if the Aga proves guilt or innocence, but to me it's a very important piece of the jigsaw of what happened that night.

Personally I think if it's established that the Aga caused the burns the only logical solution is Nevil was lying against it for hours before any shots were fired, as I don't think the police would move Nevil from the Aga to where he was found on the chair.

To me if the Aga is the cause of the burns it strongly points to Sheila as the shooter. All this rubbish about testing for signs of life if Bamber was the shooter and he was not sure he would just let off a few more shots.

I get where it all comes from Rob, it's a ground at the end of the day if he gets a CCRC referral, but the primary thing he needs to do to me has always been the same. Undermine JM, and blow the silencer evidence out of the water. That's what got him the life sentence. That's what will put the key in the door.

[Adam]

Agree on the upside chair face planted on a coal scuttle.

Disagree the burn marks origin.

Do you believe laying against the aga made the burn marks?

[ILB]

Do you believe laying against the aga made the burn marks?

To give a cover answer, I offered as you know my opinion that they were done by the rifle out of rage and spite reasons.

I wasn't at the scene of the crime 7.8.85, I have no idea that Nevill was moved or not, if evidence came to light that shows NB was burnt by the AGA, then I'd explore/accept it, if evidence came to light that showed that he was moved from the AGA then I'd explore/accept it.

But fundamentally and importantly as stated its not compelling evidence that shows that Jeremy's Bambers murder convictions are unsafe, it might on a ccrc referral make an appeal ground. But it's not anything of a groundbreaking nature in my opinion. It  won't quash his convictions.

[Adam]

I think he had gloves on and he wouldn’t want to remove them to check for pulse, pulse becomes very weak in a dying person,  the heart slows down and the blood flow is less, making it hard to find.   For me, I would inflict pain and watch for response, we used to pinch the skin as well sometimes when I did competitions for the mines.

He may have done a pulse check and not been sure. So then burned his back.

All the evidence will ever show is he lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle/chair and burnt his back.

[Adam]

To give a cover answer, I offered as you know my opinion that they were done by the rifle out of rage and spite reasons.

I wasn't at the scene of the crime 7.8.85, I have no idea that Nevill was moved or not, if evidence came to light that shows NB was burnt by the AGA, then I'd explore/accept it, if evidence came to light that showed that he was moved from the AGA then I'd explore/accept it.

But fundamentally and importantly as stated its not compelling evidence that shows that Jeremy's Bambers murder convictions are unsafe, it might on a ccrc referral make an appeal ground. But it's not anything of a groundbreaking nature in my opinion. It  won't quash his convictions.

Agree Bamber burnt his back. You have a different reason why to everyone else.

Do you not think Bamber would have remained focused & had exorcised his spite & rage by inflicting 50+ horrific injuries to Nevill?

[ILB]

Victims succumb to single Bullet injuries.

This man had been shot 8 times and beaten heavily.

[ILB]

Bamber was a 24 year old farmer, not a pathology expert.

If he's gulity of this crime he shot an intended scapegoat who was meant to be a suicide twice!

When not bound by time constraints, he could have simply pulled up a stool and watched her demise. This was his most important person of the evening as he was trying to frame her.

Can only think that the 2nd shot was done quickly without thought due to his realisation she was still breathing, had he collected his thoughts he would have gone down the route which I've just said.

[Adam]

Surprising that after a high tempo infliction of 50+ horrific injuries to Nevill, Bamber would stop and say 'I need to heat an item & burn his back to exorcise my spite & rage feelings'.

[ILB]

Surprising that after a high tempo infliction of 50+ horrific injuries to Nevill, Bamber would stop and say 'I need to heat an item & burn his back to exorcise my spite & rage feelings'.

50 horrific injuries

Sounds like a calm guy.

[snow66!]

Even assuming the burns were caused by the Aga on the night of the killings, the questions you pose are very speculative.

How can we possibly deduce when on the night the burns were sustained?

A relevant question is, how if Nevill got the burns from Aga on the night of the killings, how did he end up precariously over a stool?

That, in and of itself, seems to me to make the who Aga theory very improbable.

I may not have made it clear, Dan, but one of the possibilities I posted has Nevill knocked out lying against the Aga before regaining conciousness, only to be shot and beaten before landing on the scuttle.
And as you probably know, Boyce and campaign team believe that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry.

[snow66!]

It doesn't Snow mate, which is why to me it's a fruitless excersise when trying to overturn his convictions.

He has to show something which puts the original verdict unsafe.

But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?

[ILB]

But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?

You would need photographic evidence of the soc to come to light.

It's even trickier in this case because from the outset it was deemed murder suicide and wrapped up quickly, Jeremy seen as a bereaved relative, it's crackers to suggest they'd manipulate the scene.

Other than that it remains nothing other than a crack pot theory with no merit evidential wise in terms of the CCRC COA.