Was It Ok For DS Jones To Lie/Mislead During Police Interviews?

[Cambridgecutie]

When I say OK I mean in the legal sense not morally! 

During JB's interviews under caution DS Jones said to JB:

"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?"

From the CoA doc:

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

[ngb1066]

When I say OK I mean in the legal sense not morally! 

During JB's interviews under caution DS Jones said to JB:

"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?"

From the CoA doc:

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

It is not illegal for a police officer to lie in an interview in order to induce a suspect to believe that there is  strong evidence in the hope of inducing a confession.  However it leads to the police officer being liable to stinging cross examination and criticism from the defence and the judge. 
 

[Cambridgecutie]

It is not illegal for a police officer to lie in an interview in order to induce a suspect to believe that there is  strong evidence in the hope of inducing a confession.  However it leads to the police officer being liable to stinging cross examination and criticism from the defence and the judge.

Thank you.  That's what I thought based on my research but thought it best to seek professional opinion

[Cambridgecutie]

But I don't think in this case the defence or judge put up a stinging cross examination or criticism of DS Jones.  I will check his trial testimony.

Just thought of some nicknames for Geoffrey Rivlin KC: 'Go Lightly' or 'Light Touch' 

[ngb1066]

But I don't think in this case the defence or judge put up a stinging cross examination or criticism of DS Jones.  I will check his trial testimony.

Just thought of some nicknames for Geoffrey Rivlin KC: 'Go Lightly' or 'Light Touch' 

Geoffrey Rivlin was essentially a prosecutor.  I think this may have been his first criminal defence.  One of the leading defence QCs of that era would have conducted the case in a different way.

[ILB]

Geoffrey Rivlin was essentially a prosecutor.  I think this may have been his first criminal defence.  One of the leading defence QCs of that era would have conducted the case in a different way.

If I recall correctly Jeremy wanted George Carmen, but it never materialised as Carmen was too busy.

[ILB]

When I say OK I mean in the legal sense not morally! 

During JB's interviews under caution DS Jones said to JB:

"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?"

From the CoA doc:

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

It is typical 70s 80s bully boys tactics that fell flat on its arse as in this case the person did not confess. Or if you like was not pressured into confessing by the remark.

However that type of behaviour no doubt led to many " confessions " during that time period.

[Cambridgecutie]

Geoffrey Rivlin was essentially a prosecutor.  I think this may have been his first criminal defence.  One of the leading defence QCs of that era would have conducted the case in a different way.

Thank you.  I've checked DS Jones' trial testimony and I can't see any stinging cross examination or criticism from the judge 

[Cambridgecutie]

If I recall correctly Jeremy wanted George Carmen, but it never materialised as Carmen was too busy.

I understand he avoided taking on cases funded by legal aid. 

[Adam]

By the time Bamber was interviewed, a mountain of evidence had been processed showing it was not Sheila.

SJ also said Sheila could not have shot herself twice. Strictly not true but Bamber did not dispute that. The first shot had knocked her out.

[Cambridgecutie]

It is typical 70s 80s bully boys tactics that fell flat on its arse as in this case the person did not confess. Or if you like was not pressured into confessing by the remark.

However that type of behaviour no doubt led to many " confessions " during that time period.

Bearing in mind JB had a solicitor present and the interview was undertaken under 'normal' cicrumstances ie within a police custody suite. 

How would JM bear up if he put to her SC was murdered and we know JB was responsible.  And then went on to accuse her of providing an alibi of sorts re the phone call, we know you know etc.  You will go down with Bamber as an accessory.  No solicitor.  Holed up in the police training college and unable to have any contact with the outside world.   

[Cambridgecutie]

By the time Bamber was interviewed, a mountain of evidence had been processed showing it was not Sheila.

SJ also said Sheila could not have shot herself twice. Strictly not true but Bamber did not dispute that. The first shot had knocked her out.

Not true. 

JB gave plausible reasons about how SC could have shot herself twice and the first shot did not knock her out.

[Adam]

Not true. 

JB gave plausible reasons about how SC could have shot herself twice and the first shot did not knock her out.

He suggested -

Crispy.

Nevill said 'she' not 'Sheila' on the phone.

Reflex's.

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Plausible?

[Cambridgecutie]

He suggested -

Crispy.

Nevill said 'she' not 'Sheila' on the phone.

Reflex's.

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Plausible?

Yes reflexes are plausible reasons as to how the rifle with a light trigger pull could discharge.

I don't know what sort of dog Crispy was by way of his temperament but if he was a curious dog then yes he could start sniffing, pawing around the rifle/SC's body causing the rifle with a light trigger pull to discharge.  Bearing in mind the rifle had been used to inflict blows on NB before SC sustained her gunshot wounds which may have caused the rifle to malfuntion.   

If you look at it from the perspective of JB as innocent, which I do, he had been told on 7th Aug by DS Jones/EP SC had shot everyone and then herself.  Just over a month later he was told by DS Jones SC had been murdered which was in fact a lie because the pathologist said he was unable to say either way whether SC shot herself or she was murdered.  JB would have no reason to think DS Jones was lying so of course he then doubted in his own mind whether NB said 'Sheila' or 'she has'.  And if the defence and trial judge were doing their job properly at trial this would have come out!  You can't have an experienced police officer lying or misleading in a police interview and then expect the witness/suspect, especially when they had no experience of police interviews under caution, to provide reliable answers.

[Cambridgecutie]

Yes reflexes are plausible reasons as to how the rifle with a light trigger pull could discharge.

I don't know what sort of dog Crispy was by way of his temperament but if he was a curious dog then yes he could start sniffing, pawing around the rifle/SC's body causing the rifle with a light trigger pull to discharge.  Bearing in mind the rifle had been used to inflict blows on NB before SC sustained her gunshot wounds which may have caused the rifle to malfuntion.   

If you look at it from the perspective of JB as innocent, which I do, he had been told on 7th Aug by DS Jones/EP SC had shot everyone and then herself.  Just over a month later he was told by DS Jones SC had been murdered which was in fact a lie because the pathologist said he was unable to say either way whether SC shot herself or she was murdered.  JB would have no reason to think DS Jones was lying so of course he then doubted in his own mind whether NB said 'Sheila' or 'she has'.  And if the defence and trial judge were doing their job properly at trial this would have come out!  You can't have an experienced police officer lying or misleading in a police interview and then expect the witness/suspect, especially when they had no experience of police interviews under caution, to provide reliable answers.

Its an abuse of power and one of the reasons for PACE.