Why do you think Jeremy Bamber might be / is innocent?

[Cambridgecutie]

"Why did the police believe he was innocent for a month Dan? Even Kennealys review of the investigation confirmed this!"

Because they weren't investigating the case properly and they hadn't all the blood results back from the silencer and Julie statement at this time.

"Any evidence that sent JB down came after the first investigation was tied up, ie, Julie, silencer, scratch marks etc,."

That's mostly true, but a lot of evidence which convicted him was inarguably there all along. For example:

(1) Nevill did not call the police, but Jeremy claims he called him instead and Jeremy called the police on the local number.  In other words, Jeremy's story is far-fetched.
(2) Sheila had two gun shot wounds, which is more consistent with murder than suicide
(3) Other than Jeremy's claim to having received a call from Nevill and the gun being on top of Sheila, there is no other evidence that it was her at all. No broken finger-nails, no gun residue on her nightie, relatively clean hand and feet. No evidence that she left her bedroom during the night.

Moreover, someone still needs to provide a reasonable explanation as to how the blood got in the sound moderator. How did the relatives know that Robert Boutflour's blood would be a match? If it was down to the police, why did they frame an innocent person with absolutely no motive whatsoever?

"Also, all doors and windows were secured from inside the Whitehouse."
But Jeremy proved his ability to get in and outside the house. Do we believe his story that he got into his house through the window to get his passport?

"Sheila standing still to be shot!"
Quite common for people who are about to be executed to be obedient.

"Two bodies down stairs, three bodies up stairs!"
In fact two dead bodies! Whereas Sheila was found dead upstairs! Also, no-one saw her go upstairs so a reasonable explanation is that someone mis-gendered Nevill.

"The Aga burns!"
No-one knows how or when Nevill got those burns, let alone proof that he got them from the Aga on the night of the killling. If he got them from the Aga on the night of the killings, how did Nevill then get to be precariously over a chair?? This isn't Boyce's first mad experiment!

The silencer was first examined on 13th Aug and JM provided a stat on 8th Aug. 

Re your 1,2,3 above

1. The soc evidence supports the phone call.  It is well documented the Bamber's were very private people especially with regards to SC's mental illness.  These things were taboo back in the day along with infertitilty and adoption.  SC was not the Bamber's biological daughter and differences would have been a reminder of this.  NB was a magistrate and negligent insofar as firearm security.  Firearms were all over the farmhouse along with hundreds of rounds of ammo all of it accessible to anyone within the farmhouse.

2. If the 2 gunshot wounds to the neck were remotely suspicious the pathologist would have said as much at the time.  He found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory.

3. If there's no evidence SC left her bedroom how do you believe she ended up in her parents bedroom?  If SC was responsible, I firmly believe she was, what evidence exists that doing what the defence alleges she did would cause her nails to break?  Where's the expert evidence?  Her nightie was not checked for gunshot residue.  How could any such test be reliable?  SC was found in a room where a firearm had been discharged at least 9 times (with the barrel pointing within the bedroom).  Therefore you would expect residue whether victim or perp.  Why would her hands and feet look any different than they did?

Forget RB's blood in the silencer.  What evidence exists that the rifle, ammo and silencer combi are capable of producing back spatter other than a set of test results produced from a lab that Parliament had already criticised for quality failings and was headed up by a scientist charged with perverting the course of justice in another case?

JB admitted he could enter the farmhouse when the windows and doors appeared secured from within but he did not know of a way of exiting and leaving the windows and doors secured.  DCI Jones checked all and found totally secured.  I thought Bamber entered for car related docs for his trip to South of France?  His car was owned by the business.  The business was run from the office in the farmhouse so it would make sense that car related docs in terms of insurance policies etc were retained there.  If you drive abroad you need to take insurance docs. 

[Steve_uk]

The silencer was first examined on 13th Aug and JM provided a stat on 8th Aug. 

Re your 1,2,3 above

1. The soc evidence supports the phone call.  It is well documented the Bamber's were very private people especially with regards to SC's mental illness.  These things were taboo back in the day along with infertitilty and adoption.  SC was not the Bamber's biological daughter and differences would have been a reminder of this.  NB was a magistrate and negligent insofar as firearm security.  Firearms were all over the farmhouse along with hundreds of rounds of ammo all of it accessible to anyone within the farmhouse.

2. If the 2 gunshot wounds to the neck were remotely suspicious the pathologist would have said as much at the time.  He found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory.

3. If there's no evidence SC left her bedroom how do you believe she ended up in her parents bedroom?  If SC was responsible, I firmly believe she was, what evidence exists that doing what the defence alleges she did would cause her nails to break?  Where's the expert evidence?  Her nightie was not checked for gunshot residue.  How could any such test be reliable?  SC was found in a room where a firearm had been discharged at least 9 times (with the barrel pointing within the bedroom).  Therefore you would expect residue whether victim or perp.  Why would her hands and feet look any different than they did?

Forget RB's blood in the silencer.  What evidence exists that the rifle, ammo and silencer combi are capable of producing back spatter other than a set of test results produced from a lab that Parliament had already criticised for quality failings and was headed up by a scientist charged with perverting the course of justice in another case?

JB admitted he could enter the farmhouse when the windows and doors appeared secured from within but he did not know of a way of exiting and leaving the windows and doors secured.  DCI Jones checked all and found totally secured.  I thought Bamber entered for car related docs for his trip to South of France?  His car was owned by the business.  The business was run from the office in the farmhouse so it would make sense that car related docs in terms of insurance policies etc were retained there.  If you drive abroad you need to take insurance docs.

The point is: how could JB possibly ameliorate a purported emergency situation when the siblings were not particularly close? Remember he told police outside WHF: I don't like her and she doesn't like me. Nevill had told Farm Secretary Barbara Wilson that "the shooting season's coming up..accidents do happen." He'd also remarked to RB when discussing guns that he'd better not make it too easy for a successor to step into my shoes.

She was carried there in the exhaustive state she was in. The photographs look as if she were sleeping, she looks calm, the evidence of nocturnal combat is just not there.

"Secure windows, insecure windows, it makes no difference." Jeremy is the type of nonentity individual who has to brag about the slightest achievement, even it is so diabolical as to the killing of five.

[Cambridgecutie]

The point is: how could JB possibly ameliorate a purported emergency situation when the siblings were not particularly close? Remember he told police outside WHF: I don't like her and she doesn't like me. Nevill had told Farm Secretary Barbara Wilson that "the shooting season's coming up..accidents do happen." He'd also remarked to RB when discussing guns that he'd better not make it too easy for a successor to step into my shoes.

They were close enough to attend a party on the Saturday evening with JB taking SC home.  Even if JB spoke the words claimed if everyone went around shooting people they didn't "like" the human race would soon become extinct. 

NB had every reason to be mindful of shooting accidents given he accidentally shot June's father in the eye which resulted in loss of sight.

You put too much weight on who said what because you are unable or unwilling to carry out any proper research into the forensic side.

She was carried there in the exhaustive state she was in. The photographs look as if she were sleeping, she looks calm, the evidence of nocturnal combat is just not there.

Your assertion above is not supported by expert opinion by way of the pathologists at trial.

"Secure windows, insecure windows, it makes no difference." Jeremy is the type of nonentity individual who has to brag about the slightest achievement, even it is so diabolical as to the killing of five.

Yes makes no difference in terms of entry but not exit.  JB made this perfectly clear in his police interviews.  And given the length of time you have been around the case you should know this basic info by now. 

[Steve_uk]

They were close enough to attend a party on the Saturday evening with JB taking SC home.  Even if JB spoke the words claimed if everyone went around shooting people they didn't "like" the human race would soon become extinct. 

NB had every reason to be mindful of shooting accidents given he accidentally shot June's father in the eye which resulted in loss of sight.

You put too much weight on who said what because you are unable or unwilling to carry out any proper research into the forensic side.

Your assertion above is not supported by expert opinion by way of the pathologists at trial.

Yes makes no difference in terms of entry but not exit.  JB made this perfectly clear in his police interviews.  And given the length of time you have been around the case you should no this basic info by now.

Wasn't this only because Colin had imbibed excess alcohol intake? It wasn't Sheila who had asked her brother to escort her home: Sheila dialled the number and handed the receiver to Colin. Strange Jeremy couldn't remember any details of the ten-minute conversation in the fields on the Tuesday afternoon, and strange he told Julie his sister had done "horrible things in the past" to him, but wouldn't elucidate. Also odd was Sheila's diary that last fateful evening: I didn't mean to be horrible to Jeremy.

It was clear Nevill was discussing his son, not his father-in-law, as Jeremy was the next generation who would inherit the Farm.

There is nothing forensically-related which exonerates Jeremy. He was a Macavity-type figure and if you don't realize that by now then all your and David's efforts to get the monster released to get him off on some technicality or other have been in vain.

[Jane]

They were close enough to attend a party on the Saturday evening with JB taking SC home.  Even if JB spoke the words claimed if everyone went around shooting people they didn't "like" the human race would soon become extinct...................... 

 

But they didn't attend the party together, did they? Colin gave the party, ergo Colin invited the guests. Was Sheila actually invited, or, having helped prepare for it, simply stayed on? It certainly didn't appear that JB was her first choice of a lift home. She asked Colin first, but as he'd been drinking he told her to ask JB. She, in turn, asked Colin to ask him on her behalf.

Re words spoken. I quite agree that without hearing the 'tune', it's not possible to put any other interpretation, than our own, to them.

[BarefootDanC]

Because June suffered severe depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care and electroconvulsive treatment in 1959 when SC was around 2 years of age when attachments are formed.  This situation does not arise with JB.

A blood flake the size of the one claimed might have been able to produce the results claimed if it had not been subjected to the enviroments it had to withstand.  Maybe the experts just focused on what was in front of them and did not consider the environments.  Dr Lincoln's reports do not show that he considered the environnments.  He was not a forensic scientist as you would expect to find working in a FSP today.  He was a lecturer in blood serology working in a teaching hospital.

So are you saying that the "environments" might have affected the outcome of the testing they did on the blood (grouping, PGM, etc)? In other words, wrong results due to the environment?

[Cambridgecutie]

So are you saying that the "environments" might have affected the outcome of the testing they did on the blood (grouping, PGM, etc)? In other words, wrong results due to the environment?

There was no testing!  Just a set of results produced to fit the prosecution case.

I am saying a blood flake, as described by the prosecution, would not have been able to withstand the 'environmental insults' and produce the results claimed:

- Firearm discharged
- Blood sucked into firearm
- Silencers works by slowing the exiting hot gases. In this case we have to believe the blood flake could withstand this.  And yet exhibits which had a greater quantity of blood unaffected by such an environment were unable to be grouped:

71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful.

https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/how-a-silencer-works-gif-video-1

[BarefootDanC]

There was no testing!  Just a set of results produced to fit the prosecution case.

I am saying a blood flake, as described by the prosecution, would not have been able to withstand the 'environmental insults' and produce the results claimed:

- Firearm discharged
- Blood sucked into firearm
- Silencers works by slowing the exiting hot gases. In this case we have to believe the blood flake could withstand this.  And yet exhibits which had a greater quantity of blood unaffected by such an environment were unable to be grouped:

71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful.

https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/how-a-silencer-works-gif-video-1

"Silencers works by slowing the exiting hot gases. In this case we have to believe the blood flake could withstand this.  And yet exhibits which had a greater quantity of blood unaffected by such an environment were unable to be grouped:...."

This fact was something that all the experts were very much aware of!

My understand of "back spatter" is immediately after the hot gases being emitted, this then causes a kind of suction which draws the blood in.

[Cambridgecutie]

"Silencers works by slowing the exiting hot gases. In this case we have to believe the blood flake could withstand this.  And yet exhibits which had a greater quantity of blood unaffected by such an environment were unable to be grouped:...."

This fact was something that all the experts were very much aware of!

My understand of "back spatter" is immediately after the hot gases being emitted, this then causes a kind of suction which draws the blood in.

Who are all the experts you refer to?

I am aware that post trial the defence argued heat, from repeat firing of the rifle, may have produced the results presented at trial.  To test this hypothesis FSS Huntingdon placed blood in a (the?) silencer and discharged a (the?) rifle with the same/different ? ammo a total of 25 times.  We are told the results were unaffected. 

The experiment was to test whether between the 25 shots, at soc, blood had entered the silencer, dried, and further blood had entered and deposited on the dried blood thus producing the defence argument that the blood represented an intimate mix of June and NB's. 

The above was all about the mixed blood argument presented by the defence at trial.  A simple typed report was produced without the photographic evidence that is generated by tests using gel electrophoresis.  There is no evidence that the defence asked its own experts to check over the simple typed report and ask for the supporting photographic evidence.

My hypothesis is that a blood flake would not have been able to withstand the enviroments:

- Hot gasses from silencer
- Time spent in the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber
- Time spent hanging around in ambient temp from the above until we are told the flake was identified on 12th Sept
- I have been advised by arguably the world's leading expert on blood serology that PGM is more robust than AK and EAP and yet in this case we are told the flake was unable to produce a result for PGM!
- None of the other case related exhibits were able to produce the sort of results we are told the flake did despite the fact other exhibits contained a greater quantity of blood which did not sustain the sort of environmental insults the flake underwent.

I do not trust anything coming out of FSS.  I have carried out considerable research into much of the trial testimony and I believe it is wrong.

3.3 FSS Quality

3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science. The present FSS in-house quality framework goes well beyond the basic requirements of ISO17025 and is in close accord with the FSR’s forthcoming Codes. Indeed, before closure was announced the FSS were planning to act as a test-bed for compliance to this code later this year.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

Plus at the time the Bamber exhibits were under examination FSS Huntingdon was headed up by Ronald Outteridge, the forensic scientist charged with perverting the course of justice in the case of Stefan Kiszko:

https://www.watersidepress.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Criminal-Proceedings_Holland-Outteridge.pdf

And the above is just the tip of the iceberg about the flake being a crock of shite. 

[Roch]

Interesting reading, Cambridge.

[snow66!]

Interesting reading, Cambridge.

It is indeed Roch!
Cutie certainly knows her stuff!

[ngb1066]

It is indeed Roch!
Cutie certainly knows her stuff!

She has researched this area of the case very thoroughly.  Unfortunately she has not been listened to by some who could have made a difference to JB's prospects by following up on her analysis.

 

[Hardy Boy]

She has researched this area of the case very thoroughly.  Unfortunately she has not been listened to by some who could have made a difference to JB's prospects by following up on her analysis.

 

I don't dispute what your saying NGB, But, i don't take her serious anymore and i don't know how anyone can,   she has been posting here under different names i'm lead to believe, she claimed she was Colsville from Red forum when she first introduced herself on here, yet we all Know her as Holly, meaning she had two Identites on Red, [On the red forum I have been posting as Colsville, if you want to have a look at what I've written] her arguments about Stan Jones, re him planting blood in the silencer and climbing through the WHF window to plant the silencer for the relatives to find, was Bonkers, and I'm personally not bothered wether she thinks Bamber innocent or guilty, but she spent most of her time arguing for his guilt and now done a complete U turn 

So i must admit,  So this is my reason why i don't listen to her.

[snow66!]

She has researched this area of the case very thoroughly.  Unfortunately she has not been listened to by some who could have made a difference to JB's prospects by following up on her analysis.

 

Thats a pity, ngb!

[snow66!]

I don't dispute what your saying NGB, But, i don't take her serious anymore and i don't know how anyone can,   she has been posting here under different names i'm lead to believe, she claimed she was Colsville from Red forum when she first introduced herself on here, yet we all Know her as Holly, meaning she had two Identites on Red, [On the red forum I have been posting as Colsville, if you want to have a look at what I've written] her arguments about Stan Jones, re him planting blood in the silencer and climbing through the WHF window to plant the silencer for the relatives to find, was Bonkers, and I'm personally not bothered wether she thinks Bamber innocent or guilty, but she spent most of her time arguing for his guilt and now done a complete U turn 

So i must admit,  So this is my reason why i don't listen to her.

Yes, there is no doubt Cutie has been up to a few shenanigans over the years regarding different identitie's HB, but that doesn't really mean her findings should be dissmissed if they are correct does it?