Silencer: If Sheila's blood was planted what about David & Pamela's blood group?

[Cambridgecutie]

What, like through the Kitchen window when everyone had gone?

It was difficult for the firearms team to enter because the occupant(s) bolted the doors before going to bed.  When DS Jones entered under stealth he did not need to contend with bolts/doors locked from within.  We know he was present when the keys were handed over to the Eatons and the newly fitted alarm explained.  Bottom line is that at the time of WHF he had worked in policing for nearly a quarter of a century and would have been well versed in breaking and entering. 

[Cambridgecutie]

I uploaded the 2002 appeal judgment to Claude 3.5 AI and asked it "If the silencer in the Jeremy Bamber case is a fabrication. Who was most likely responsible for its contamination? The police or the extended family?"

This is what it produced.


"The following points are essential in evaluating the question of potential contamination and the responsibility for any such contamination:

Key Points to Consider:

The Discovery by the Family:

The silencer was discovered by David Boutflour in the gun cupboard on 10 August 1985, several days after the murders, and witnessed by other family members.

The fact that the family, not the police, found the silencer raises questions about whether it was tampered with or mishandled between the discovery and the point at which it was turned over to the police.

Handling by the Family:

After being found, the silencer was taken to Ann Eaton's home for "safekeeping." During this period, members of the family examined it and noted what they perceived as damage to the surface, red paint, and blood.

The family examining the silencer without forensic supervision could have resulted in unintentional contamination. Without proper protective measures, handling could have transferred biological material onto the object.

Blood and Paint Observations:

The family observed red paint and what appeared to be blood, and when it was later examined by police, blood was confirmed, but there was insufficient quantity for grouping analysis. This raises doubts about the significance of the blood traces and whether they were present from the start or introduced during handling.

Loss of Key Evidence (Grey Hair):

A grey hair, about an inch long, was noted by DS Jones upon collection but was lost before it reached the Forensic Science Service. This loss of potentially vital evidence highlights potential mishandling or a lapse in the police's chain of custody, which further complicates determining the origins of the contamination.
Timing and Chain of Custody:

The silencer was recovered on 10 August but not collected by the police until 12 August, leaving a window of time during which the family had full access to it. This gap in the chain of custody between discovery and forensic analysis presents an opportunity for accidental or deliberate contamination.

Analysis:

Given the facts presented, two main considerations stand out:

Family's Access and Handling: The family’s involvement in both discovering and examining the silencer, without immediate police oversight, creates the possibility of unintentional contamination. The family members who were suspicious of Jeremy Bamber could also have been motivated, consciously or unconsciously, to interpret or present evidence in a way that pointed toward his guilt. If the silencer had red paint and blood on it when they found it, handling it could have disturbed or altered these traces.

Police Mishandling: The loss of the grey hair, the fact that there was only a small amount of blood that couldn't be grouped, and potential issues with the chain of custody also point to possible police mishandling or oversight. The grey hair, if retained, could have been crucial in determining the involvement of Sheila Caffell or Jeremy Bamber. The police might have compounded issues by failing to safeguard critical evidence after collection.

Conclusion:
Based on the judgment, the extended family’s initial handling of the silencer poses a more significant risk of contamination before the police took possession of it. While the police's loss of evidence (the grey hair) and gaps in proper forensic procedures are concerning, the opportunity for contamination seems highest when the silencer was in the possession of the family, examined without forensic expertise, and stored outside of police control.

That said, it's important to consider that any mishandling, whether by the family or the police, could have compromised the integrity of the evidence."

Given AI was so wrong about Curiosity and Cambridgecutie being one and the same why are we going to put any weight on the above?

[Hardy Boy]

I made a mistake above by referring to Oak Farm when in fact it was WHF.  According to AE's trial testimony the bloodstained clothing went in the kitchen bin at WHF and was not taken to Oak Farm as David claims.

Youv'e made quite a few mistakes haven't you, you said Basil Cock wasn't the Executor, Basil Cock was the Accountant and the Executor of the Bamber Estate.  When a will is made out, the Executor is always named in the Will as the person dealing witht he estate.

[Cambridgecutie]

I would agree more with this than the accusation what Cutie made, there are a lot of Red Flags for me regarding the Families possesion of the silencer, not so much the finding, but the actual length of time they had it in their Possesion?  Some could possibly be explained away by the fact the Police wasn't interested though.

Cutie's accusation about Stan just doesn't hold up, she changed from Stan doing the deed in the Office, to now saying Stan went in at night and Fabricated the silencer.

I haven't seen any audit trail about the phone call from the relatives to EP.  I think we agree DS Jones was off duty over the weekend?  The relatives may have wanted to deal with DS Jones (who according to Zoso was the family FLO) hence he went on the day he returned to duty. 

Did the deed in the office?  Well he must have scratched the silencer at WHF.

[Cambridgecutie]

Youv'e made quite a few mistakes haven't you, you said Basil Cock wasn't the Executor, Basil Cock was the Accountant and the Executor of the Bamber Estate.  When a will is made out, the Executor is always named in the Will as the person dealing witht he estate.

No I didn't say BC wasn't the executor.  I referred to him as the accountant and you said you thought he was the executor.  I replied that it was usual for accountants to take on the role of executor.

[Hardy Boy]

I haven't seen any audit trail about the phone call from the relatives to EP.  I think we agree DS Jones was off duty over the weekend?  The relatives may have wanted to deal with DS Jones (who according to Zoso was the family FLO) hence he went on the day he returned to duty. 

Did the deed in the office?  Well he must have scratched the silencer at WHF.

Who?  DB noticed a scratch on the silencer. 

[Cambridgecutie]

Who?  DB noticed a scratch on the silencer.

Scratched the AGA.

[Hardy Boy]

Scratched the AGA.

Oh right, i thought you meant the scratch on the silencer itself.

[snow66!]

Huh? They were in the buckets and nothing to do with the murders!

Wasn't there a missing shell casing in the kitchen Zoso?

[David1819]

I would agree more with this than the accusation what Cutie made, there are a lot of Red Flags for me regarding the Families possesion of the silencer, not so much the finding, but the actual length of time they had it in their Possesion?  Some could possibly be explained away by the fact the Police wasn't interested though.

Cutie's accusation about Stan just doesn't hold up, she changed from Stan doing the deed in the Office, to now saying Stan went in at night and Fabricated the silencer.

It would be interesting to upload the trial transcripts to various AI models and see what feedback they give.

[Zoso]

Wasn't there a missing shell casing in the kitchen Zoso?

No.

[ILB]

It would be interesting to upload the trial transcripts to various AI models and see what feedback they give.

I always found the cross examination between Arlidge and Jeremy quite benign under the circumstances.

[Hardy Boy]

Wasn't there a missing shell casing in the kitchen Zoso?

Don't get it, how's it missing if it's in the Kitchen?

[Cambridgecutie]

Don't get it, how's it missing if it's in the Kitchen?

NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds in the kitchen with only 3 casings recovered. 

[Hardy Boy]

NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds in the kitchen with only 3 casings recovered.

Oh, so it's missing FROM the Kitchen and not Missing in the Kitchen.