Silencer: If Sheila's blood was planted what about David & Pamela's blood group?

[ILB]

It seems Holland wrote the statement where he 'confessed' and he signed it.  He was socially inept, totally naive and ill equipped to deal with an officer like Holland.  He redacted the statement but sadly the harm was done. 

https://www.watersidepress.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Richard-Holland_statement.pdf

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Delusions-Innocence-Tragic-Stefan-Kiszko/dp/1909976466?asin=1909976466&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

I recommend you read " did you never suspect " by Ronald Castrees son Nick Castree. It's a good read.

[Cambridgecutie]

It is said that they told kiszko " get this signed and we can get it all wrapped up for Christmas "

The reality is there was sleep deprivation, gentle threats, and persuasion of a stronger kind.

 This is 1970s policing in Britain. In the early 80s as a teenager I witnessed similar myself.

And according to the authors of the book, Michael O'Connell and Campbell Malone, the police rode roughshod over his legal rights.  Eg he was not told he could have a solicitor present and when he was in fact free to leave he was held in custody.  You can see how a thick tunnel visioned copper(s) could have someone like Kiszko in sight but when the scientific evidence proved he was not their man they refused to accept it 

[Cambridgecutie]

OK clever clogs, can you show me a lab sketch where SC's blood groupings are actually pointed out on the SM?

Wow I was being a bit rude there.  Sorry about that    I get frustrated with you because you appear to jump on absurd theories without thinking them through.  The idea the relatives contaminated the silencer is a complete non-starter. 

Blood is removed from the exhibits and then goes to the lab for testing all within FSS, Huntingdon.  The enzyme and protein groups eg AK, EAP, HP, PGM are tested using gel electrophoresis which calculates the weight of molecules and produces photographic evidence by way of bars in columns.

It is unclear from the documentation exactly what the protocols, systems and processes were in terms of scientists removing blood and transporting it to the lab area for testing.

All my research around the blood and surrounding topics points to wrongdoing at the lab. 

As far as I can see re the blood flake, which is what Bamber's conviction hangs on, there are two possibilities:

- The lab was in possession of 3 vials of SC's blood from pm/Dr Vanezis.  Therefore blood was available for contamination.

- The lab simply produced a set of test results.  Bearing in mind it had already done this for SC's blood made available from pm. 

I am inclined to think it was the latter because:

- There does not appear to be any detailed sketches as to where exactly the blood was found within the silencer, measurements etc as there was with the rifle.

- The testimony about who found it, where and how much seems contradictory and vague.

- The LCN DNA testing carried out in 2002 was unable to find SC's DNA.  The reason given was that it was all swabbed away for the testing in 1985/86.  This seems improbable when you consider LCN DNA can identify DNA from poorly degraded samples as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt.

And for those going  the above is just the tip of the iceberg 

[ILB]

And according to the authors of the book, Michael O'Connell and Campbell Malone, the police rode roughshod over his legal rights.  Eg he was not told he could have a solicitor present and when he was in fact free to leave he was held in custody.  You can see how a thick tunnel visioned copper(s) could have someone like Kiszko in sight but when the scientific evidence proved he was not their man they refused to accept it 

I guarantee you that had Stan Jones not been interviewing a posh boy from a wealthy educated background and he had been a young kid from a south london council estate the interview would have not been done under such " polite circumstances "

They would have never in a million years been able to a cough out of Jeremy Bamber.

[ILB]

In fairness though perhaps they were treading on eggshells so to speak. If Bamber had been vindicated at this early stage then it wouldn't have been good PR for EP to be seen as " accusing a grieving man who has just lost five members of his family" especially a intelligent one who was soon to be very wealthy as well

[Bubo bubo]

Wow I was being a bit rude there.  Sorry about that    I get frustrated with you because you appear to jump on absurd theories without thinking them through.  The idea the relatives contaminated the silencer is a complete non-starter. 

Blood is removed from the exhibits and then goes to the lab for testing all within FSS, Huntingdon.  The enzyme and protein groups eg AK, EAP, HP, PGM are tested using gel electrophoresis which calculates the weight of molecules and produces photographic evidence by way of bars in columns.

It is unclear from the documentation exactly what the protocols, systems and processes were in terms of scientists removing blood and transporting it to the lab area for testing.

All my research around the blood and surrounding topics points to wrongdoing at the lab. 

As far as I can see re the blood flake, which is what Bamber's conviction hangs on, there are two possibilities:

- The lab was in possession of 3 vials of SC's blood from pm/Dr Vanezis.  Therefore blood was available for contamination.

- The lab simply produced a set of test results.  Bearing in mind it had already done this for SC's blood made available from pm. 

I am inclined to think it was the latter because:

- There does not appear to be any detailed sketches as to where exactly the blood was found within the silencer, measurements etc as there was with the rifle.

- The testimony about who found it, where and how much seems contradictory and vague.

- The LCN DNA testing carried out in 2002 was unable to find SC's DNA.  The reason given was that it was all swabbed away for the testing in 1985/86.  This seems improbable when you consider LCN DNA can identify DNA from poorly degraded samples as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt.

And for those going  the above is just the tip of the iceberg 

I agree wholeheartedly. I do not believe the family were responsible for the blood contamination though they may have had a role in the paint on the knurled end.

This was my take on a possible source taken from a longer post which is shown below.

1 Sheila contaminated it by her actions.

This could have been caused by a nose bleed when adding or removing the SM blood drips on the SM or muzzle. Another possibility is that she had blood on her hand which transferred to the muzzle during handling. It is also possible some blood dripped onto the SM around the exit. It is also possible that SC ‘prodded dead victims putting blood on the muzzle.

2 The TFG unwittingly contaminated it.

If there was blood on the muzzle and maybe a small incursion into the barrel and they then fitted the SM to make at least one shot (say the first or second shot as outlined in evidence). The action would possibly cause minute particles/mist size droplets to be distributed on the baffle plates and inside the main SM’s barrel/bore as far as that noted in the evidence.

3 A deliberate action at the lab

They, MDF in particular, could have created a flake or they obtained it from the receptacle containing PV20 and blood. As noted by Taylor on his GER. (QC I believe this is another document dated 12/09/85). Since there is a distinct possibility that he swapped PV20 to help create the one-gun crime, the creation of a flake or a flake from the PV20 receptacle would hold no fear.


4 A mistake by MDF who test fired the rifle.

Though he says he did a pull through and found no blood he might have come to the conclusion that he had caused it when small quantities were found by testing for bloods. He may have test fired before the blood tests. A mistake by a ‘novice’? Any earlier contamination would be blasted into the SM. If he visually inspected, it before both the test fire and/or the pull through. It is unlikely he could see the blood because JH and PJL asserted that the blood was not visible to the naked eye.
This suggestion comes into play if 2 above is excluded.

I do not know which if any of the four scenarios I favour but I feel it could be an amalgam of any 2 or 3 from the total. All these scenarios place blood on the muzzle and a strong likelihood that this fact resulted in stronger blood findings which were found on the female screw head. A condition that cannot occur in normal operating conditions. They (SM’s) are designed and built so as not to leak in this area.

My full post

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11938.msg549432.html#msg549432

[Cambridgecutie]

I agree wholeheartedly. I do not believe the family were responsible for the blood contamination though they may have had a role in the paint on the knurled end.

No.  DS Jones acted completely alone was responsible for the blood, paint and hair on the outside.

This was my take on a possible source taken from a longer post which is shown below.

Longer post?  You?  No?

I do not know which if any of the four scenarios I favour but I feel it could be an amalgam of any 2 or 3 from the total. All these scenarios place blood on the muzzle and a strong likelihood that this fact resulted in stronger blood findings which were found on the female screw head. A condition that cannot occur in normal operating conditions. They (SM’s) are designed and built so as not to leak in this area.

My full post

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11938.msg549432.html#msg549432

You over complicate everything. 

[David1819]

I agree wholeheartedly. I do not believe the family were responsible for the blood contamination though they may have had a role in the paint on the knurled end.

This was my take on a possible source taken from a longer post which is shown below.

I do not know which if any of the four scenarios I favour but I feel it could be an amalgam of any 2 or 3 from the total. All these scenarios place blood on the muzzle and a strong likelihood that this fact resulted in stronger blood findings which were found on the female screw head. A condition that cannot occur in normal operating conditions. They (SM’s) are designed and built so as not to leak in this area.

My full post

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11938.msg549432.html#msg549432

The silencer was found on August the 10th. The blood was first "noticed" reported later that day at Oak Farm. The blood samples from Sheila that were taken by Peter Vanezis were already sent up to Huntington on August 9th the day before. This narrows down the culprits to those in Oak Farm.

[Bubo bubo]

No.  DS Jones acted completely alone was responsible for the blood, paint and hair on the outside.

Longer post?  You?  No?

You over complicate everything.

I agree about the flake but how were the tiny/minuscule droplets found by PL in his first report created?

[Cambridgecutie]

In fairness though perhaps they were treading on eggshells so to speak. If Bamber had been vindicated at this early stage then it wouldn't have been good PR for EP to be seen as " accusing a grieving man who has just lost five members of his family" especially a intelligent one who was soon to be very wealthy as well

Well he was vindicated at the earliest possible stage.  The most senior officers considered the soc murder/suicide:  Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones.  The latter checking the windows and doors were all secured from within. The police surgeon thought it was murder/suicide based on SC's appearance and Bamber's reactions.  None of the firearms team contradicted the murder/suicide theory and some were military trained and had been on active duty ie they were familiar with gunshot wounds.  The pathologist found nothing to contradict the murder/sucide theory. 

It really is very simple:

- The relatives who in reality knew very little about Bamber and SC became convinced SC could not be responsible.  DS Jones, who had no experience of a mass shooting and was ignorance personified, was all ears to the relatives.  You can hear from the horse's mouth his reasons for believing SC could not have been responsible in Sky's 'killing mum and dad' production.

- DS Jones alone fabricated the outside of the silencer: blood, paint and hair.  He then secured JM's testimony by making all sorts of threats during her interrogation.  Much the same way the police did with Kiszko and all the other high profile MOJ's than involved false confessions.

- The lab faced with what they thought was a legitimate exhibit ie the silencer as above and JM's testimony were persuaded to come up with the flake.

[ILB]

Well he was vindicated at the earliest possible stage.  The most senior officers considered the soc murder/suicide:  Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones.  The latter checking the windows and doors were all secured from within. The police surgeon thought it was murder/suicide based on SC's appearance and Bamber's reactions.  None of the firearms team contradicted the murder/suicide theory and some were military trained and had been on active duty ie they were familiar with gunshot wounds.  The pathologist found nothing to contradict the murder/sucide theory. 

It really is very simple:

- The relatives who in reality knew very little about Bamber and SC became convinced SC could not be responsible.  DS Jones, who had no experience of a mass shooting and was ignorance personified, was all ears to the relatives.  You can hear from the horse's mouth his reasons for believing SC could not have been responsible in Sky's 'killing mum and dad' production.

- DS Jones alone fabricated the outside of the silencer: blood, paint and hair.  He then secured JM's testimony by making all sorts of threats during her interrogation.  Much the same way the police did with Kiszko and all the other high profile MOJ's than involved false confessions.

- The lab faced with what they thought was a legitimate exhibit ie the silencer as above and JM's testimony were persuaded to come up with the flake.

Can understand cohesion about the threats to mugford. But the hair and blood on the silencer? What are you suggesting Jones did?

[Cambridgecutie]

The silencer was found on August the 10th. The blood was first "noticed" reported later that day at Oak Farm. The blood samples from Sheila that were taken by Peter Vanezis were already sent up to Huntington on August 9th the day before. This narrows down the culprits to those in Oak Farm.

No it does not.  You are completely wrong and totally misunderstand the blood evidence.  When is it going to sink in the blood on the outside was completely different to the set of results created by the lab for the flake said to have been found inside?

EP released WHF from a soc back to Bamber late noon on 9th Aug.  He said he did not want to go back in at that stage so DS Jones met the Eatons and handed the keys over to AE and gave instructions about the newly fitted alarm. 

DS Jones had access to WHF and was in a position of being there alone.  The silencer had already become very topical hence Bamber was asked to complete a further statement about it on 8th Aug.

DS Jone inside WHF alone was able to recover the silencer contaminate it with small bloodstains, paint and hair and leave it for the relatives to find.  He didn't need SC's blood.  Small blood stains were incapable of being typed a fact he would have been well aware of.  He may well have pricked his own finger.

The really incriminating 'evidence' was not created until a month later when the lab produced a set of test results.

[ILB]

Why would Jones do this though even if he thought Bamber gulity?

Bamber getting away with it wouldn't effect DS Jones life.  A moral standpoint gone wrong? What are you suggesting?

[Cambridgecutie]

I agree about the flake but how were the tiny/minuscule droplets found by PL in his first report created?

That's not what PL stated in his report.  There were no tiny/minuscule droplets found by PL inside the silencer.  There was nothing visible. 

Weak or very weak positive reactions for blood which could have indicated the presence of blood were detectable on the collar ring and the first 8 baffle plates.  These reactions were all weak and there was no blood clearly visible to the naked eye.  Such findings could be consistent with an item having been previously swabbed by a forensic scientist to remove bloodstains for testing

[Cambridgecutie]

Why would Jones do this though even if he thought Bamber gulity?

Bamber getting away with it wouldn't effect DS Jones life.  A moral standpoint gone wrong? What are you suggesting?

It is what the evidence supports.  Only he knows why.  I have thought the relatives may have incentivised him.  Possibly Peter Eaton but that's just a thought.  According to AE when the silencer was handed over she was in bed/or went to bed and PE and DS Jones sat drinking whisky into the small hours.  What was under discussion?