Author Topic: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination  (Read 3131 times)

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Offline Hardy Boy

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #420 on: January 13, 2024, 10:50:PM »
No,not at all Jane.The police! I just think they got it wrong.
Its the CPS who make the decision to Prosecute, not the Police.

The CPS:

decides which cases should be prosecuted;
determines the appropriate charges in more serious or complex cases, and advises the police during the early stages of investigations;
prepares cases and presents them at court; and
provides information, assistance and support to victims and prosecution witnesses.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #421 on: January 13, 2024, 10:55:PM »
I think she’s turned down several since Steve and TV interviews?
Yes, and it's to her credit. Has anyone from that coterie who killingeve called "scumbags" ever gainsaid her since the trial, or did anyone ever vouch for Jeremy, apart from the woman who used to buy Pentland Javelins?

Offline Zoso

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #422 on: January 14, 2024, 12:44:PM »
Ah,you mean some people claim Julie lied for the money Jane? Yes,I agree that is laughable.
Besides,I believe the police were mainly responsible for Julie's statements and trial evidence.
What I believe is that Julie, and Sue for that matter,said what the police wanted them to say in order to save their own skin.

Save their own skin from what? I suspect you're talking about the cheque book fraud? How do you think the police knew about that?

Offline snow66!

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #423 on: January 14, 2024, 12:53:PM »
Save their own skin from what? I suspect you're talking about the cheque book fraud? How do you think the police knew about that?
Hi Zoso.Well seeing its all been withheld pretty much it is impossible to know how things happened and evolved. However,if JB is innocent we just have to think what could have logically taken place.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #424 on: January 14, 2024, 01:12:PM »
Save their own skin from what? I suspect you're talking about the cheque book fraud? How do you think the police knew about that?

The police used a tried and trusted method. The prisoner dilemma trap. They went to interview SB whose only relationship to events at the, time was to verify information given to them by JM, most notably the time of the phone calls from JB to JM. It is possible that during this questioning SB told them about the fraud or behaved in a way that made them suspicious and that she was hiding something.

The next step in the process was to bring in SB for questioning at Chelmsford. Step two was to arrange it so that SB and JM could see each other without conferring. This created the classic prisoner dilemma situation (you can read about it on the net or in my post outlined below).

In such situations each of the two to be questioned are unsure what the other might say and so have to frame/guess what position to adopt. I do not know what they said but guess that JM seeing SB who had been brought from London had already 'coughed' about the fraud and gave her story. JM,s thinking was probably along the lines that it had to be the fraud because they would hardly bring her from London to verify the time of the calls or other chit chats about events since the murders.

I admit I cannot second guess the precise details but the facts about them seeing each other at Chelmsford suggests this is how the police uncovered the fraud.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10693.msg493790.html#msg493790

Offline Hardy Boy

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #425 on: January 14, 2024, 02:04:PM »
Hi Zoso.Well seeing its all been withheld pretty much it is impossible to know how things happened and evolved. However,if JB is innocent we just have to think what could have logically taken place.
Nice read for you Snow, this was in the Court Of Appeal 2002?

Ground 5 – evidence relevant to the credibility of Julie Mugford 331. Ground 5 raises issues relating to Julie Mugford. When she had given a statement to the police in September 1985, she had made admissions of dishonest conduct in which she had been involved. She referred to a burglary offence committed jointly with the appellant and to a cheque book fraud committed jointly with Susan Battersby. She was not prosecuted for either offence nor was Susan Battersby prosecuted for the cheque book fraud which she too had admitted to the police. The first limb of ground 5 is a complaint that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that both Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby were given immunity.

332. As Mr Temple points out, in answer to that aspect of the matter, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby were not granted immunity as such but a decision was taken by the DPP not to prosecute. We therefore read this ground as being a complaint that the documentation relating to the decision not to prosecute each of the witnesses was not disclosed to the defence.

333. The jury knew about the admissions made to the police. They further knew that neither of the girls had been prosecuted for these offences. Julie Mugford told the jury that she had "got a caution for it". When the judge summed the case up to the jury, he referred to her receiving "a police caution". Mr Turner's submission is that the jury were misled by being told that she had received a "police caution", and that the prosecution were under a duty to correct this wrong impression.

334. It is undoubtedly correct that Julie Mugford had not received a formal police caution in the sense that that expression is clearly understood by police officers and lawyers. It may be that the trial judge in translating Miss Mugford's reference to a caution into a formal police caution had misunderstood the position. However it seems unlikely to us that the jury would have understood the significance of a formal police caution as opposed to any other warning as to her future behaviour.

335. However, whether or not the jury understood the legal distinction of a formal police caution, we fail to see how this could have had any possible impact upon their considerations. What mattered in assessing the weight to be given to the witness's evidence was their own admitted dishonesty, and how they had behaved in relation to such dishonesty, not how the authorities had responded to their admissions. Any failure to correct the judge's reference to a formal police caution cannot be laid at the door of the police since the position was clearly understood by the lawyers and hence such a failure could not in any way taint the evidence of the police officers involved in the inquiry.

336. We turn, therefore, to consider the second aspect of this ground. After revealing these matters to the police, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby went to Susan Battersby's bank, the victim of their cheque book fraud, to inform the bank of their dishonesty. The second limb of this ground contends that the prosecution failed to disclose the action of DS Jones and other unidentified officers in respect of the cheque fraud perpetrated by Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby on the Midland Bank. Mr Turner in his skeleton argument explains this part of the ground by alleging:

"... contrary to the evidence given at trial, Susan Battersby and Julie Mugford's attendance at the Midland Bank had been orchestrated by the police and unidentified officers had almost certainly encouraged the bank to take the stance that they did."

337. In order to consider these allegations it is necessary to look in more detail at what occurred. Julie Mugford went to the police on 7 September 1985 and gave them the account which she was to repeat in evidence. She made a detailed statement on the following two days, 8 and 9 September. On 10 September she made a further statement. In the course of the taking of that statement, she spoke about smoking cannabis that the appellant had purchased. She then spoke of other things that she suggested the appellant had done and she went on to say:

"I would like to tell you about the burglary I committed with Jeremy."

338. At that point she was cautioned and told that she did not have to say anything but she went on to give the police details of that burglary. Having dealt with that matter, she then revealed that she had also committed the cheque fraud with Susan Battersby.

339. Susan Battersby was also being interviewed on the same day and at the same time and she independently admitted the cheque book fraud to the police. She made a written statement to the police under caution. That statement commenced by expressing her belief that she would not be taken before the court as a result of making the statement. She added:

"I have made a witness statement relating to the death of five people and I understand my credibility is important."

340. All these facts were clearly known to the defence and they were in a position to make such use of them as they saw fit. The first document that Mr Turner submits is significant and which had not been disclosed to the defence is a police action form (Action no. 148) dated 13 September 1985. The nature of the action is given as:

"Two officers to investigate cheque offences admitted by Mugford...take possession of this property where ever it may be."

341. Included within the section for the result of the action is the account number for the relevant account and there then appears the following passage:

"Please note – Battersby has supplied this information even though she is an accused person. I have given her one week from 23/9/85 to change banks so that she will be inconvenienced as little as possible."

342. On 4 October, Susan Battersby and Julie Mugford went to the bank. They saw there Alan Dovey, an accountant with the bank who was acting as Branch Manager. A statement from Mr Dovey recording this visit was served upon the defence. Mr Dovey's statement included:

"I can say that on 4 October 1985 Miss Battersby came to the bank to see me with another girl who I know as a Miss Julie Mugford. Miss Battersby then informed me that she had not lost her cheque book but had been dishonest. Both stated that they were involved in the passing of the cheques. As a result of what they said I accepted their offer of paying the money back to the bank. In fact £320 has been paid to date and arrangements have been made for the outstanding amount to be paid at the rate of £50 per week. I can say that the bank was the loser in this matter and not the shops who accepted the cheques.

I am authorised on behalf of the bank to say that in view of the fact that the girls have confessed and agreed to pay back the monies the bank do not wish to prosecute in this case."

343. Julie Mugford gave evidence to the jury about the visit to the bank. She said that she had gone to the bank to explain what had happened and she said that this was not on the advice of the police.

344. When the judge dealt with this aspect of the matter in his summing up (Transcript page 19C), he said:

"It is the defendant's case, of course, that Julie Mugford's evidence in this case is fabricated, and that she is a brazen, blatant liar, so Mr Rivlin introduced the matter of her previous cheque offences in order to suggest to you then that it was shown that she has been dishonest in the past and so that you can bear in mind that part of her character when assessing whether to believe her not on the evidence she has given in this trial. That is the degree to which that evidence is relevant. Of course, the fact that a person has committed some offence, or has at some time lied in the past, in no way proves that they can never again tell the truth and you might think particularly so, on oath in a murder trial. It does not prove that at all. It is merely there for you to have in mind when you come to weigh up her evidence.

In considering whether her past dishonesty affects your assessment of her as a witness in this case, no doubt you will bear one or two things in mind, namely that she volunteered her past offences to the bank who had lost the money when she went to them about a month after she had made her statement to the police in this case, and volunteered to them that if they look back they would find frauds for which she was responsible. She told you that she went there voluntarily and re-paid the money that had obtained, and it seems, does it not, that without her voluntary revelation of her own part in those offences, she would never have been caught for them. They would have never come to light, and it was in those circumstances that she was not in fact prosecuted for them. She received a police caution."

345. Apart from Action no. 148, the appellant relies on evidence available from the acting bank manager, Mr Dovey. On 20 March 2002, he was asked to recall the events which had happened over sixteen years before. He explained that he had made notes about the meeting in bank reference books and that he wished to consult those notes. Unfortunately it transpired that the records were no longer in existence having been destroyed in the course of the bank's normal processes. Mr Dovey had, therefore, to rely on his unaided memory. He indicated that when Susan Battersby and Julie Mugford saw him on 4 October 1985 he had received an internal phone call telling him that Susan Battersby was coming to see him and following the meeting he should report back to the Chief Inspector's Department. When Susan Battersby had arrived, she had been accompanied by a police officer in plain clothes and by Julie Mugford. The officer had introduced the other two and indicated that Susan Battersby had something that she wished to say. Miss Battersby had then revealed the cheque fraud and offered to repay the money defrauded. He then said:

"Once I had finished dealing with Miss Battersby, the officer then told me that Miss Battersby was to be a witness in a court case some months in the future, and that she did not want this matter, i.e. the cheque and cheque card, weighing on her mind. I got the distinct impression that the emphasis was on the girls, and it was their consciences that led to the meeting. I had been asked today if the officer, either directly or indirectly, put me under any form of pressure to take a certain course of action e.g. not to prosecute. I can say quite happily that he did not. He did condense the girl's desires, and said words to the effect that the girls wanted to come in and tell the truth, wanted to pay the money back, not be branded thieves, and hopefully not to be prosecuted."

346. Mr Dovey said that he had made the decision not to prosecute himself and then had discussed the matter with someone in the Chief Inspector's Department who had given approval for the course of action he proposed. Arrangements were then made for the repayment of the money over the following weeks and the girls then left.

347. In his statement, Mr Dovey recalls that at that stage the officer said that he would be back with "a typed statement" for him to sign in the next couple of weeks and that he too had then left.

348. He said that an officer, he believed that it was the same officer who had come before, came back with a prepared statement which he read and after satisfying himself of its contents signed. The statement, which is not typed but hand written, is dated 14 October, ten days after the visit to the bank.

349. Mr Dovey in his statement finally repeated that he had not been put under any pressure to reach a conclusion one way or the other.

350. The officer who wrote the statement signed by Mr Dovey in October 1985 was DS Jones. Mr Turner draws attention to the fact that there are two alterations to that statement, each of which are initialled by the witness and each changes the description of Mr Dovey's position within the bank from bank manager to accountant. He submits that an inference can be drawn from these alterations that the statement was prepared at a time when Mr Dovey was not present and was as Mr Dovey himself recalls only taken to him for signing after preparation.

351. The prosecution have explored whether the statement made by Mr Dovey in March 2002 is right. Further statements have been taken from Julie Mugford (now Julie Smerchanski), Susan Battersby and DS Jones. Each of the girls insist that there was no police officer present when they went to see Mr Dovey. DS Jones asserts that he was not present on this occasion and produces his diary that shows that he had a rest day on the day when the visit was made to the bank. Miss Battersby said that she could not remember how the visit came about but she thought that she must have telephoned the bank and asked for an appointment with the manager.

352. During preparation for trial, the defence solicitor wrote to the DPP asking to be supplied with "a list of all the occasions on which there has been oral communication between the police and Julie Mugford, with a brief description of the purpose of such communication against each date".

353. We have been shown a letter addressed to the DPP in which the police dealt with this request. They suggest that it was "totally unreasonable" to have to provide a list of all communications. They said that a list would be made available at trial listing "all personal visits to the witness". That list when it was made available, did not record any contact on the day of the visit to the bank.

354. Although this aspect of the case was advanced in the ground as a straightforward example of non-disclosure, Mr Turner contended that in the alternative the court should hear the evidence of Mr Dovey as fresh evidence and should conclude that the jury had been misled in an important regard by the evidence of Julie Mugford; that if the true position had been known, the judge's summing up in this regard would have been very different; that the list provided to the defence had been deliberately misleading; and that such matters meant that Julie Mugford's evidence, an important part of the prosecution case, may not properly have been assessed thereby rendering the convictions unsafe.

355. We considered first the question of non-disclosure. So far as Action no. 148 is concerned, bearing in mind that police actions were not normally disclosed at that date, there was nothing in its contents which in our judgment demanded that it should be brought to the attention of the defence. It revealed no more than that a witness, Susan Battersby, who had admitted criminal offences whilst purporting to assist the police in respect of a major inquiry into five deaths which might have been murders, had been shown a degree of consideration by a police officer. In all the circumstances, we find it difficult to see how that could properly have been the subject of any criticism that might have had the slightest impact upon the outcome of the case. Since it would not, there was no requirement that this fact should be drawn to the attention of the defence.

356. As to all other matters, the prosecution case was, and still is, that no police officer attended the bank. There was no evidence available to the prosecution to contradict their case in this regard and accordingly there was no requirement for disclosure. It seems to us that this aspect of the case falls to be considered as a straightforward instance of fresh evidence apparently contradicting an aspect of the prosecution's case as presented at trial.

357. Whilst we had grave doubts as to whether even if these matters were made out, they could possibly lead to a conclusion that the verdict was unsafe, we nonetheless thought it to be in the interests of justice to permit Mr Turner to call Mr Dovey to give evidence before us. We have no doubt that Mr Dovey was an honest witness doing his best to assist the court but a great deal was being asked of his unaided recollection in recalling matters so long ago. There were differences between his evidence in the witness box and the statement which he made in March 2002. In the witness box he said that he did not know of any connection between the matters he was dealing with and any police inquiry. He further said when speaking of the phone call from the Chief Inspector's Department that he only "vaguely remembered" getting such a call. None of this surprises us after such a lapse of time particularly when the notes which he made in order to remind himself if necessary of these events are no longer available. There was, however, no doubt in his mind that a police officer had been present.

358. Having heard Mr Dovey, we had to decide whether it was necessary to hear further evidence from the prosecution witnesses. We concluded that it was not. In our judgment it is now impossible after such a long lapse of time to resolve this factual conflict. Material which might have been of critical importance has been destroyed. All concerned, and not simply Mr Dovey, are relying on memories which in matters of detail are almost certainly imperfect. But even if the court could resolve the factual conflict, we think it impossible to draw any satisfactory conclusion as to what was happening at the time. As, Lord Woolf, CJ observed in Hanratty [2002] EWCA Crim. 1141; [2002] 2 Cr. App. R. 30 at paragraph 99:

"Another difference between a case such as this and a case which has only been tried recently is that this court can expect in the latter type of case to be provided with an explanation for situations which give rise to a suspicion of possible impropriety. There may be an explanation for what happened which shows that there is no cause for suspicion, but this may be impossible to discover due to the passage of time."

359. We think that it is of the greatest possible significance that Mr Dovey has said throughout that no sort of pressure was brought to bear upon him to take any particular course of action. Mr Dovey also said that during the meeting he got the impression that the girls said what they did out of a sense of guilt. He said that it was highly unusual for those who had defrauded the bank to make offers of repayment and that it was these factors, and these factors alone, that had a bearing on his decision.

360. We are conscious of the fact that Mr Edmund Lawson QC, in a statement put before the court, said that he found it difficult to say unequivocally that the defence would have made use of this information even if they had been aware of it. He said of this matter that "it may seem relatively unimportant". He observed, however, that if it showed the police to have been dishonest in that there were denials of what had really happened, then there might have been a use to be made of it to attack police credibility.

361. We are far from persuaded that anything done by the police or by the witnesses was improper on any version of the facts. Insofar as there is now a conflict between the witnesses, we are not persuaded that such conflict would have manifested itself, if these matters had been explored whilst memories remained fresh and notes still survived. Accordingly we are not in any way persuaded that this aspect of the case, which was to an extent removed from the critical features of the case, gives us any cause to doubt the safety of the convictions. We do not accept that any impropriety by the police has been established on the evidence available, either as to their conduct at the time of the visit to the bank or by way of some attempt to cover up their role in the matter.

362. Even if we were persuaded that an officer visited the bank with the girls, we would be far from persuaded that it was DS Jones. The fact that he was recorded as being on a rest day suggests to us that it was unlikely that he would be at the bank. The point made by Mr Turner about alterations, in our judgment, loses force when it is appreciated that Mr Dovey was acting as manger of the branch at the time and we can see how the alterations could have come about whether Mr Dovey was present or not when his statement was drafted.

363. The final limb of ground 5 relates to the fact that Julie Mugford sold her story to the newspapers. As we made clear earlier in this judgment one ground of appeal raised before the court at the original appeal and rejected by the court as unarguable related to this same topic.

364. Mr Turner explained to the court that there was now evidence available to show that when Julie Mugford indicated through the prosecution that she had not sold her story to the press at the time of trial that this was simply untrue.

365. We can deal with this aspect of the case shortly because by the conclusion of the evidence, Mr Turner acknowledged that he was unable to establish on that this was so.

366. He, therefore, did not address us in his closing speech to argue that there was any significant difference between the ground that had earlier failed and the present ground and accordingly it must fail as it properly did before.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 02:05:PM by Hardy Boy »

Offline snow66!

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #426 on: January 14, 2024, 03:34:PM »
Nice read for you Snow, this was in the Court Of Appeal 2002?

Ground 5 – evidence relevant to the credibility of Julie Mugford 331. Ground 5 raises issues relating to Julie Mugford. When she had given a statement to the police in September 1985, she had made admissions of dishonest conduct in which she had been involved. She referred to a burglary offence committed jointly with the appellant and to a cheque book fraud committed jointly with Susan Battersby. She was not prosecuted for either offence nor was Susan Battersby prosecuted for the cheque book fraud which she too had admitted to the police. The first limb of ground 5 is a complaint that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that both Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby were given immunity.

332. As Mr Temple points out, in answer to that aspect of the matter, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby were not granted immunity as such but a decision was taken by the DPP not to prosecute. We therefore read this ground as being a complaint that the documentation relating to the decision not to prosecute each of the witnesses was not disclosed to the defence.

333. The jury knew about the admissions made to the police. They further knew that neither of the girls had been prosecuted for these offences. Julie Mugford told the jury that she had "got a caution for it". When the judge summed the case up to the jury, he referred to her receiving "a police caution". Mr Turner's submission is that the jury were misled by being told that she had received a "police caution", and that the prosecution were under a duty to correct this wrong impression.

334. It is undoubtedly correct that Julie Mugford had not received a formal police caution in the sense that that expression is clearly understood by police officers and lawyers. It may be that the trial judge in translating Miss Mugford's reference to a caution into a formal police caution had misunderstood the position. However it seems unlikely to us that the jury would have understood the significance of a formal police caution as opposed to any other warning as to her future behaviour.

335. However, whether or not the jury understood the legal distinction of a formal police caution, we fail to see how this could have had any possible impact upon their considerations. What mattered in assessing the weight to be given to the witness's evidence was their own admitted dishonesty, and how they had behaved in relation to such dishonesty, not how the authorities had responded to their admissions. Any failure to correct the judge's reference to a formal police caution cannot be laid at the door of the police since the position was clearly understood by the lawyers and hence such a failure could not in any way taint the evidence of the police officers involved in the inquiry.

336. We turn, therefore, to consider the second aspect of this ground. After revealing these matters to the police, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby went to Susan Battersby's bank, the victim of their cheque book fraud, to inform the bank of their dishonesty. The second limb of this ground contends that the prosecution failed to disclose the action of DS Jones and other unidentified officers in respect of the cheque fraud perpetrated by Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby on the Midland Bank. Mr Turner in his skeleton argument explains this part of the ground by alleging:

"... contrary to the evidence given at trial, Susan Battersby and Julie Mugford's attendance at the Midland Bank had been orchestrated by the police and unidentified officers had almost certainly encouraged the bank to take the stance that they did."

337. In order to consider these allegations it is necessary to look in more detail at what occurred. Julie Mugford went to the police on 7 September 1985 and gave them the account which she was to repeat in evidence. She made a detailed statement on the following two days, 8 and 9 September. On 10 September she made a further statement. In the course of the taking of that statement, she spoke about smoking cannabis that the appellant had purchased. She then spoke of other things that she suggested the appellant had done and she went on to say:

"I would like to tell you about the burglary I committed with Jeremy."

338. At that point she was cautioned and told that she did not have to say anything but she went on to give the police details of that burglary. Having dealt with that matter, she then revealed that she had also committed the cheque fraud with Susan Battersby.

339. Susan Battersby was also being interviewed on the same day and at the same time and she independently admitted the cheque book fraud to the police. She made a written statement to the police under caution. That statement commenced by expressing her belief that she would not be taken before the court as a result of making the statement. She added:

"I have made a witness statement relating to the death of five people and I understand my credibility is important."

340. All these facts were clearly known to the defence and they were in a position to make such use of them as they saw fit. The first document that Mr Turner submits is significant and which had not been disclosed to the defence is a police action form (Action no. 148) dated 13 September 1985. The nature of the action is given as:

"Two officers to investigate cheque offences admitted by Mugford...take possession of this property where ever it may be."

341. Included within the section for the result of the action is the account number for the relevant account and there then appears the following passage:

"Please note – Battersby has supplied this information even though she is an accused person. I have given her one week from 23/9/85 to change banks so that she will be inconvenienced as little as possible."

342. On 4 October, Susan Battersby and Julie Mugford went to the bank. They saw there Alan Dovey, an accountant with the bank who was acting as Branch Manager. A statement from Mr Dovey recording this visit was served upon the defence. Mr Dovey's statement included:

"I can say that on 4 October 1985 Miss Battersby came to the bank to see me with another girl who I know as a Miss Julie Mugford. Miss Battersby then informed me that she had not lost her cheque book but had been dishonest. Both stated that they were involved in the passing of the cheques. As a result of what they said I accepted their offer of paying the money back to the bank. In fact £320 has been paid to date and arrangements have been made for the outstanding amount to be paid at the rate of £50 per week. I can say that the bank was the loser in this matter and not the shops who accepted the cheques.

I am authorised on behalf of the bank to say that in view of the fact that the girls have confessed and agreed to pay back the monies the bank do not wish to prosecute in this case."

343. Julie Mugford gave evidence to the jury about the visit to the bank. She said that she had gone to the bank to explain what had happened and she said that this was not on the advice of the police.

344. When the judge dealt with this aspect of the matter in his summing up (Transcript page 19C), he said:

"It is the defendant's case, of course, that Julie Mugford's evidence in this case is fabricated, and that she is a brazen, blatant liar, so Mr Rivlin introduced the matter of her previous cheque offences in order to suggest to you then that it was shown that she has been dishonest in the past and so that you can bear in mind that part of her character when assessing whether to believe her not on the evidence she has given in this trial. That is the degree to which that evidence is relevant. Of course, the fact that a person has committed some offence, or has at some time lied in the past, in no way proves that they can never again tell the truth and you might think particularly so, on oath in a murder trial. It does not prove that at all. It is merely there for you to have in mind when you come to weigh up her evidence.

In considering whether her past dishonesty affects your assessment of her as a witness in this case, no doubt you will bear one or two things in mind, namely that she volunteered her past offences to the bank who had lost the money when she went to them about a month after she had made her statement to the police in this case, and volunteered to them that if they look back they would find frauds for which she was responsible. She told you that she went there voluntarily and re-paid the money that had obtained, and it seems, does it not, that without her voluntary revelation of her own part in those offences, she would never have been caught for them. They would have never come to light, and it was in those circumstances that she was not in fact prosecuted for them. She received a police caution."

345. Apart from Action no. 148, the appellant relies on evidence available from the acting bank manager, Mr Dovey. On 20 March 2002, he was asked to recall the events which had happened over sixteen years before. He explained that he had made notes about the meeting in bank reference books and that he wished to consult those notes. Unfortunately it transpired that the records were no longer in existence having been destroyed in the course of the bank's normal processes. Mr Dovey had, therefore, to rely on his unaided memory. He indicated that when Susan Battersby and Julie Mugford saw him on 4 October 1985 he had received an internal phone call telling him that Susan Battersby was coming to see him and following the meeting he should report back to the Chief Inspector's Department. When Susan Battersby had arrived, she had been accompanied by a police officer in plain clothes and by Julie Mugford. The officer had introduced the other two and indicated that Susan Battersby had something that she wished to say. Miss Battersby had then revealed the cheque fraud and offered to repay the money defrauded. He then said:

"Once I had finished dealing with Miss Battersby, the officer then told me that Miss Battersby was to be a witness in a court case some months in the future, and that she did not want this matter, i.e. the cheque and cheque card, weighing on her mind. I got the distinct impression that the emphasis was on the girls, and it was their consciences that led to the meeting. I had been asked today if the officer, either directly or indirectly, put me under any form of pressure to take a certain course of action e.g. not to prosecute. I can say quite happily that he did not. He did condense the girl's desires, and said words to the effect that the girls wanted to come in and tell the truth, wanted to pay the money back, not be branded thieves, and hopefully not to be prosecuted."

346. Mr Dovey said that he had made the decision not to prosecute himself and then had discussed the matter with someone in the Chief Inspector's Department who had given approval for the course of action he proposed. Arrangements were then made for the repayment of the money over the following weeks and the girls then left.

347. In his statement, Mr Dovey recalls that at that stage the officer said that he would be back with "a typed statement" for him to sign in the next couple of weeks and that he too had then left.

348. He said that an officer, he believed that it was the same officer who had come before, came back with a prepared statement which he read and after satisfying himself of its contents signed. The statement, which is not typed but hand written, is dated 14 October, ten days after the visit to the bank.

349. Mr Dovey in his statement finally repeated that he had not been put under any pressure to reach a conclusion one way or the other.

350. The officer who wrote the statement signed by Mr Dovey in October 1985 was DS Jones. Mr Turner draws attention to the fact that there are two alterations to that statement, each of which are initialled by the witness and each changes the description of Mr Dovey's position within the bank from bank manager to accountant. He submits that an inference can be drawn from these alterations that the statement was prepared at a time when Mr Dovey was not present and was as Mr Dovey himself recalls only taken to him for signing after preparation.

351. The prosecution have explored whether the statement made by Mr Dovey in March 2002 is right. Further statements have been taken from Julie Mugford (now Julie Smerchanski), Susan Battersby and DS Jones. Each of the girls insist that there was no police officer present when they went to see Mr Dovey. DS Jones asserts that he was not present on this occasion and produces his diary that shows that he had a rest day on the day when the visit was made to the bank. Miss Battersby said that she could not remember how the visit came about but she thought that she must have telephoned the bank and asked for an appointment with the manager.

352. During preparation for trial, the defence solicitor wrote to the DPP asking to be supplied with "a list of all the occasions on which there has been oral communication between the police and Julie Mugford, with a brief description of the purpose of such communication against each date".

353. We have been shown a letter addressed to the DPP in which the police dealt with this request. They suggest that it was "totally unreasonable" to have to provide a list of all communications. They said that a list would be made available at trial listing "all personal visits to the witness". That list when it was made available, did not record any contact on the day of the visit to the bank.

354. Although this aspect of the case was advanced in the ground as a straightforward example of non-disclosure, Mr Turner contended that in the alternative the court should hear the evidence of Mr Dovey as fresh evidence and should conclude that the jury had been misled in an important regard by the evidence of Julie Mugford; that if the true position had been known, the judge's summing up in this regard would have been very different; that the list provided to the defence had been deliberately misleading; and that such matters meant that Julie Mugford's evidence, an important part of the prosecution case, may not properly have been assessed thereby rendering the convictions unsafe.

355. We considered first the question of non-disclosure. So far as Action no. 148 is concerned, bearing in mind that police actions were not normally disclosed at that date, there was nothing in its contents which in our judgment demanded that it should be brought to the attention of the defence. It revealed no more than that a witness, Susan Battersby, who had admitted criminal offences whilst purporting to assist the police in respect of a major inquiry into five deaths which might have been murders, had been shown a degree of consideration by a police officer. In all the circumstances, we find it difficult to see how that could properly have been the subject of any criticism that might have had the slightest impact upon the outcome of the case. Since it would not, there was no requirement that this fact should be drawn to the attention of the defence.

356. As to all other matters, the prosecution case was, and still is, that no police officer attended the bank. There was no evidence available to the prosecution to contradict their case in this regard and accordingly there was no requirement for disclosure. It seems to us that this aspect of the case falls to be considered as a straightforward instance of fresh evidence apparently contradicting an aspect of the prosecution's case as presented at trial.

357. Whilst we had grave doubts as to whether even if these matters were made out, they could possibly lead to a conclusion that the verdict was unsafe, we nonetheless thought it to be in the interests of justice to permit Mr Turner to call Mr Dovey to give evidence before us. We have no doubt that Mr Dovey was an honest witness doing his best to assist the court but a great deal was being asked of his unaided recollection in recalling matters so long ago. There were differences between his evidence in the witness box and the statement which he made in March 2002. In the witness box he said that he did not know of any connection between the matters he was dealing with and any police inquiry. He further said when speaking of the phone call from the Chief Inspector's Department that he only "vaguely remembered" getting such a call. None of this surprises us after such a lapse of time particularly when the notes which he made in order to remind himself if necessary of these events are no longer available. There was, however, no doubt in his mind that a police officer had been present.

358. Having heard Mr Dovey, we had to decide whether it was necessary to hear further evidence from the prosecution witnesses. We concluded that it was not. In our judgment it is now impossible after such a long lapse of time to resolve this factual conflict. Material which might have been of critical importance has been destroyed. All concerned, and not simply Mr Dovey, are relying on memories which in matters of detail are almost certainly imperfect. But even if the court could resolve the factual conflict, we think it impossible to draw any satisfactory conclusion as to what was happening at the time. As, Lord Woolf, CJ observed in Hanratty [2002] EWCA Crim. 1141; [2002] 2 Cr. App. R. 30 at paragraph 99:

"Another difference between a case such as this and a case which has only been tried recently is that this court can expect in the latter type of case to be provided with an explanation for situations which give rise to a suspicion of possible impropriety. There may be an explanation for what happened which shows that there is no cause for suspicion, but this may be impossible to discover due to the passage of time."

359. We think that it is of the greatest possible significance that Mr Dovey has said throughout that no sort of pressure was brought to bear upon him to take any particular course of action. Mr Dovey also said that during the meeting he got the impression that the girls said what they did out of a sense of guilt. He said that it was highly unusual for those who had defrauded the bank to make offers of repayment and that it was these factors, and these factors alone, that had a bearing on his decision.

360. We are conscious of the fact that Mr Edmund Lawson QC, in a statement put before the court, said that he found it difficult to say unequivocally that the defence would have made use of this information even if they had been aware of it. He said of this matter that "it may seem relatively unimportant". He observed, however, that if it showed the police to have been dishonest in that there were denials of what had really happened, then there might have been a use to be made of it to attack police credibility.

361. We are far from persuaded that anything done by the police or by the witnesses was improper on any version of the facts. Insofar as there is now a conflict between the witnesses, we are not persuaded that such conflict would have manifested itself, if these matters had been explored whilst memories remained fresh and notes still survived. Accordingly we are not in any way persuaded that this aspect of the case, which was to an extent removed from the critical features of the case, gives us any cause to doubt the safety of the convictions. We do not accept that any impropriety by the police has been established on the evidence available, either as to their conduct at the time of the visit to the bank or by way of some attempt to cover up their role in the matter.

362. Even if we were persuaded that an officer visited the bank with the girls, we would be far from persuaded that it was DS Jones. The fact that he was recorded as being on a rest day suggests to us that it was unlikely that he would be at the bank. The point made by Mr Turner about alterations, in our judgment, loses force when it is appreciated that Mr Dovey was acting as manger of the branch at the time and we can see how the alterations could have come about whether Mr Dovey was present or not when his statement was drafted.

363. The final limb of ground 5 relates to the fact that Julie Mugford sold her story to the newspapers. As we made clear earlier in this judgment one ground of appeal raised before the court at the original appeal and rejected by the court as unarguable related to this same topic.

364. Mr Turner explained to the court that there was now evidence available to show that when Julie Mugford indicated through the prosecution that she had not sold her story to the press at the time of trial that this was simply untrue.

365. We can deal with this aspect of the case shortly because by the conclusion of the evidence, Mr Turner acknowledged that he was unable to establish on that this was so.

366. He, therefore, did not address us in his closing speech to argue that there was any significant difference between the ground that had earlier failed and the present ground and accordingly it must fail as it properly did before.
Well,obviously the court of appeal believes every word the police,Mugford,Battersby,Dovey etc., said regarding the cheque fraud escapade,also about Mugford selling her story.
 Its a bit of a stretch to accept it all as fact though HB.Well for those who doubt Bambers guilt anyway.

Offline Adam

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #427 on: January 14, 2024, 03:59:PM »
Well,obviously the court of appeal believes every word the police,Mugford,Battersby,Dovey etc., said regarding the cheque fraud escapade,also about Mugford selling her story.
 Its a bit of a stretch to accept it all as fact though HB.Well for those who doubt Bambers guilt anyway.

There is no doubt about Bamber's guilt. There are over 200 pieces of evidence.

However people are allowed to support for alternative reasons or seek a technicality by disputing a piece of evidence.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Hardy Boy

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #428 on: January 14, 2024, 04:03:PM »
Well,obviously the court of appeal believes every word the police,Mugford,Battersby,Dovey etc., said regarding the cheque fraud escapade,also about Mugford selling her story.
 Its a bit of a stretch to accept it all as fact though HB.Well for those who doubt Bambers guilt anyway.
The problem the police now had,  was that both Susan and Julie were Bad Character witnesses, they both would have been asked if they had any skeletons in the closet, and when they revealed their past, i think the Police would know that Bambers Defence would have a field day with these two, unless it was dealt with............. i don't for one minute think these two would have revealed what they had done to the Police or would go on their own free will to repay the money back unless they was faced with the situation they were in?  It is obvious that the Police gave them a helping hand in terms of advice and possibly a little persuasion with the Bank?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 04:52:PM by Hardy Boy »

Offline snow66!

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #429 on: January 14, 2024, 04:13:PM »
There is no doubt about Bamber's guilt. There are over 200 pieces of evidence.

However people are allowed to support for alternative reasons or seek a technicality by disputing a piece of evidence.
Indeed we are Adam!

Offline snow66!

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #430 on: January 14, 2024, 04:21:PM »
The problem the police now had was that both Susan and Julie were Bad Character witnesses, they both would have been asked if they had any skeletons in the closet and when they revealed their past, i think the Police would know that Bambers Defence would have a field day with these two, unless it was dealt with............. i don't for one minute think these two would have revealed what they had done to the Police or would go on their own free will to repay the money back unless they was faced with the situation they were in?  It is obvious that the Police gave them a helping hand in terms of advice and possibly a little persuasion with the Bank?
Yes,agree HB.But the big question is did the police ask Julie and Sue to tell porkies against JB who they had decided was guilty.We will never know what took place.

Offline Adam

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #431 on: January 14, 2024, 04:26:PM »
Yes,agree HB.But the big question is did the police ask Julie and Sue to tell porkies against JB who they had decided was guilty.We will never know what took place.

Julie had completed her September WS prior to the police knowing about the minor cheque book fraud.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online ILB

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #432 on: January 14, 2024, 04:31:PM »
Julie had completed her September WS prior to the police knowing about the minor cheque book fraud.

Crime is crime however minor
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Offline Adam

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #433 on: January 14, 2024, 04:38:PM »
Crime is crime however minor

Why do think this was brought up at trial?

Unlike the caravan break in, it was nothing to do with the massacre, minor and a long time before.
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Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination
« Reply #434 on: January 14, 2024, 04:59:PM »
Julie had completed her September WS prior to the police knowing about the minor cheque book fraud.
That may be true but because the police needed to check her disclosure, they put her up at the police centre and began to check it's accuracy. A quick scan by me can find no admission of the fraud. It was as part of the checking of this masterpiece of venom laden falsehood that they set the prisoner dilemma trap and were able to manipulate her into their key prosecution witness once JM and SB admitted the fraud.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 06:50:PM by Bubo bubo »