Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination

[Roch]

I have edited a couple of posts to remove personal insults on this thread. There may be more that I have missed.

[Bubo bubo]

If Adam is what you accuse him of being, I can only believe he's thoroughly enjoying his ability to rile you. Indeed, I suspect you enjoy 'feeding' him? Truth be known, you're both of equal intransigence. Simply at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Incidentally, my comment was about a particular; ie your suggestion that Adam will require information about where Julie might obtain spare parts. Although I'd have imagined her first port of call would have been the farm. There's probably have been any number of hands willing to assist?

Not so. I have just taken a rare opportunity to make my case against him. He does not rile me because I have him on ignore. I just happened to be logged out and seized the opportunity to make my point (yet again) which I have made on other occasions with it appears little success because the moderators are clearly not interested in preserving the credibility of the forum.

The bike engineering was just the sort of point he will use to extend a post and his post count. Nothing more and I do not place myself on any spectrum and perhaps the moderators will note your comment and take action for suggesting I am on a par with a troll.

[Jane]

Not so. I have just taken a rare opportunity to make my case against him. He does not rile me because I have him on ignore. I just happened to be logged out and seized the opportunity to make my point (yet again) which I have made on other occasions with it appears little success because the moderators are clearly not interested in preserving the credibility of the forum.

The bike engineering was just the sort of point he will use to extend a post and his post count. Nothing more and I do not place myself on any spectrum and perhaps the moderators will note your comment and take action for suggesting I am on a par with a troll.

As you SO frequently point out to me, it's about how others experience us, rather than how we see ourselves. You may "not place myself on any spectrum and perhaps moderators will note your comment and take action for suggesting I am on par with a troll" but not once did I use that word. It is yours, as it is your belief that it fits Adam.

[Adam]

If Julie mugford would have said at the time " Jeremy is talking absolute bollocks in relation to the bike " then she could have put it to bed.

If we are looking at this instance alone on itself. Julie has never disagreed with Bambers reasons for getting the bike.

Julie's testified she suggested a bike a year earlier. To give her the option of cycling to work - Goldhanger to Maldon. This is plausible but not relevant to August 1985.

The reasons Bamber gave when testifying are not plausible. The reason the CT now give is not plausible.

I have had to dismiss your claim that Bamber was a member of a gym. No source has been provided despite two requests.

[Zoso]

What you say is true when you frame the case in that way. However if you believe that he was framed much of the critical and serious evidence can be ignored and the surrounding flotsam and Jetsam is just window dressing and of limited evidential value.

The police said the house was secure on the night. It does not mean that was always the case and indeed he entered the property without a key after the murders and admits it. The bike issue could just be a pure coincidence and is twisted and biged up as window dressing. There is no concrete evidence it was used it is just pure speculation and a stick with which to beat him.

The accompanying facts that SC could be the perpetrator given her illness and other cases of familicide in the last 30 odd years suggest she could be and most probably was the killer.

How many murder for gain have their been in the last 30 years?

[Adam]

I'm not sure a 21 year old woman going out with some lairy posh git show off, would be particularly interested in using his mothers bike to go to the bus stop. Where are you going to lock it?

The fact is that once you work out that Bamber is the murderer, all the other questions that then get asked, have a very plausable answer that backs up the fact that he murdered his family.

So for exmple, he murdered his family, in which case how did he enter and exit the house given that all the doors were locked from the inside.

The answer comes from Bamber himself, who admitted that he could enter and exit the house via the windows, which were completely insecure.

So the next logical question is: how did he get to WHF between midnight and 3 am?.  And it turns out that a couple of days before the murders, he takes his mothers bike from WHF and keeps it at his own house in GH.  And he admits to that too.  Nobody else did it (like June maybe) as a favour to Julie.  Bamber did it himself, under his own initiative.

And so all the pieces of the jigsaw all just happen to fit perfectly together without any effort, once those secondary facts are known, and without any manipulation of those known facts.

The story kind of writes itself.

Even as an academic experiment, if you make Bamber the murderer (in a hypothetical sense), all the known evidence backs up that hypothesis,and backs it up conclusivly.

If you then - hypothetically speaking - make Sheila the murderer who then committed suicide, many of the accomanying known facts, don't fit that scenario. You have to lie and manipulate and massage the facts, to make Sheila look guilty.

And for the last 30 odd years, that is exactly what Jeremy Bamber has been doing.  As confirmed in 2012 when the CCRC determined that his application to appeal his conviction consisted of nothing more than 'pure speculation and unsubstantiated allegations'.  It's a very polite way of saying...he lied.

It is true that everything fits into place. Supporters try to break the straight forward Bamber scenario with zero success.

[ILB]

Julie's testified she suggested a bike a year earlier. To give her the option of cycling to work - Goldhanger to Maldon. This is plausible but not relevant to August 1985.

The reasons Bamber gave when testifying are not plausible. The reason the CT now give is not plausible.

I have had to dismiss your claim that Bamber was a member of a gym. No source has been provided despite two requests.

I said I'd get it you by the end of today. It is currently 12.15.

I've dismissed pretty much anything you have ever said. But let's remain respectful

[Adam]

I said I'd get it you by the end of today. It is currently 12.15.

I've dismissed pretty much anything you have ever said. But let's remain respectful

You know you need to be ready to provide an instant source when making a claim. Espescially if it is something new.

I will only ask twice as used to waste time asking Rob 4/5 times for sources that were not supplied.

BuboBubo quickly provided a source upon request yesterday.

[Adam]

Maldon Road is 4.9 miles. It starts at Osea Road and finishes at TD.

The shop would really have to be less than half a mile away. No one is going to cycle further for a pint of milk 

Getting onto Maldon Road is also a journey.

So doubtful the shop was near enough for a bike to be useful. There was a garage self service shop on Church Street anyway.

[ILB]

You know you need to be ready to provide an instant source when making a claim. Espescially if it is something new.

I will only ask twice as used to waste time asking Rob 4/5 times for sources that were not supplied.

BuboBubo quickly provided a source upon request yesterday.

Who do you think you are, you are nothing special. I'm not your girlfriend or partner, you don't dictate to me!

[Bubo bubo]

How many murder for gain have their been in the last 30 years?

Probably less than crimes of rage, anger, jealousy and mental illness. Please give me the counts under the various headings to confirm you statement.

[Hardy Boy]

I occasionally go out on my bike in the middle of the night to indulge in a bit of astrophotography.   And locally, the best way to get around is on a bike.

Riding around at night on byways and bridleways through the countryside is safe (relatively), easy and enjoyable.  Although I just shoot the stars rather than my entire family.  But each to their own. 

It would be easy to ride after midnight from GH to WHF.  And especially so in august, when it is warm and dry. 

As for lights, I use a single, cheap LED light on my bike, rather than the really expensive setups some people use.  In the 80's Bamber would have had horrible bulbs and rubbish batteries, but it's amazing how little light you need to negotiate footpaths, byways and bridleways. 

Honestly, cycling 3 something miles between GH and WHF at night is easy.   He would have been under stress, but as long as he took it steady and didn't go bombing it along at maximum speed along the footpaths, then he'd be fine.

It would be easy to use either roads or footpaths/bridleways/byways.

Of all the logistical problems associated with murdering your entire family 3 miles away from where you live,  getting there and back is not very high up on the list, in terms of difficulty. 

On another note...

Imagine being Julie Mugford, going out with Jeremy Bamber, a very superficial person, who loved to show off to his friends by flashing the cash, telling you he's got you something....and it's out on the driveway.   Oh, lovely, he's brought me a car....oh hang on, it's not a car, it's his mothers bike.  WTF?  And he tells me I can go and do the shopping on it.  WTF? Thanks Jeremy, you really know how to make a woman feel  loved. I feel so special now you've stolen your mothers bike so that I can use it to do the shopping.

Must admit i find it great to be out on the trails and Canal paths early in the mornings in the dark, so peaceful and quite, i don't see another person.  The lights on my bike though are totally different to the 80s which were probably of the Ever ready "D" Battery or Dynamo type offering very little or to be honest useless lighting,   Today’s lights are amazing, with incredible advancements in brightness, battery runtime, rechargeable batteries, mines 1800 Lumens and lights up the trail perfect, the cycle lights in the 80s would have offered nothing in showing Bamber where to cycle,   Ever Ready lights never really did more than signal your existence to drivers. The argument about lights on the bike back then is a non starter for me, because, all they offered was a glow and no spot light as such and would have been useless.

[Cambridgecutie]

Must admit i find it great to be out on the trails and Canal paths early in the mornings in the dark, so peaceful and quite, i don't see another person.  The lights on my bike though are totally different to the 80s which were probably of the Ever ready "D" Battery or Dynamo type offering very little or to be honest useless lighting,   Today’s lights are amazing, with incredible advancements in brightness, battery runtime, rechargeable batteries, mines 1800 Lumens and lights up the trail perfect, the cycle lights in the 80s would have offered nothing in showing Bamber where to cycle,   Ever Ready lights never really did more than signal your existence to drivers. The argument about lights on the bike back then is a non starter for me, because, all they offered was a glow and no spot light as such and would have been useless.

A 1980's torch or dynamo would have provided plenty of light for cycling to and from WHF.

However bad torches were in those days, they were still very useful for seeing in the dark!  It's what they were created for.

Also, there was a three quarter full moon on 7th August, which would have provided enough detail in his surroundings beyond the reach of the light, and then the torch would have lit up the area in front of the bike to give more detail immediately in front of him.

I think you've got it the wrong way round.  Old fashioned low power lights, pre LED's would have lit up the ground in front of the bike, but would have been the faintest of dots 50 yards away, and would barely register.  So actually the opposite of what you are thinking.

But no, 1980's lights provided plenty of light for night time cycling.  Particularly if you were going out to murder your family, whereas today you might be whizzing through hilly forests at full speed, in which case you would need a brighter set of modern LED lights. safety first and all that.

[Steve_uk]

Provide evidence he went to Stringfellows. You just love to drop in stuff to tarnish him.

You're not as well up on the case as you profess. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/119648317/so-my-best-friend-turned-out-to-be-a-mass-murderer

[Hardy Boy]

A 1980's torch or dynamo would have provided plenty of light for cycling to and from WHF.

However bad torches were in those days, they were still very useful for seeing in the dark!  It's what they were created for.

Also, there was a three quarter full moon on 7th August, which would have provided enough detail in his surroundings beyond the reach of the light, and then the torch would have lit up the area in front of the bike to give more detail immediately in front of him.

I think you've got it the wrong way round.  Old fashioned low power lights, pre LED's would have lit up the ground in front of the bike, but would have been the faintest of dots 50 yards away, and would barely register.  So actually the opposite of what you are thinking.

But no, 1980's lights provided plenty of light for night time cycling.  Particularly if you were going out to murder your family, whereas today you might be whizzing through hilly forests at full speed, in which case you would need a brighter set of modern LED lights. safety first and all that.

I can only go by my own experience I'm not saying he never cycled, because it is quite possible to cycle the sea wall without lighting, iv'e rode hundreds of times in the dark without lights and on tracks, i mainly need heavy lighting because i'm under tree cover with no ambient lighting for assistance, out in the open the ambient light is different and i can easily turn my Lumens on the torch down?   To my mind  the light they gave out was very poor and did nothing other than signal your existence to drivers.  The one tiny bulb on the lamp was useless for lighting the way, if we talk about a torch that is different because you held the torch in a downward motion or could point it and offer it in different position offering a spot in front of your feet to see where you walk, cycle lights pointed outwards from the bike usually on a fixed bracket for awareness and the beam barely reached the floor?