Author Topic: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?  (Read 10043 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2023, 12:04:PM »
Gringo, you fail to mention the fact that the vast majority of Jews that moved from Europe to the British Mandate of Palestine from 1933 till 1946 were Holocaust survivors. Who no longer felt safe being an ethnic minority and no longer felt safe in Europe. Amin al-Husseini being complicit in the Holocaust didn't make the Jews feel to friendly towards the Palestinians either.

Prior to the Nazis, the idea of a Jewish state was nothing but a frivolous abstraction that would never have worked. Even if Napolean Bonaparte could live up to his proclamation, it would never have lasted. Post 1945 it was seen as a necessity.

You are trying to portray the creation of modern Israel in a vacuum and that is was created for the sake of it. Which is complete dishonesty on your part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement


Offline gringo

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2023, 01:51:PM »
..because it didn't condemn Hamas.
    You are a monster. I don't think you are aware of how poorly this reflects on you. The overwhelming majority of the world is appalled at the veto of the US and abstention of the UK. Taking the position, as they and you have, that the slaughter should stop, but only if we also condemn Hamas is shameful beyond words. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths already and any future deaths held to ransom unless Hamas are "condemned".

    "Condemn Hamas, or the babies get it!", is the position that you are justifying, in a nutshell. Shameful  :-[

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2023, 02:07:PM »
    You are a monster. I don't think you are aware of how poorly this reflects on you. The overwhelming majority of the world is appalled at the veto of the US and abstention of the UK. Taking the position, as they and you have, that the slaughter should stop, but only if we also condemn Hamas is shameful beyond words. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths already and any future deaths held to ransom unless Hamas are "condemned".

    "Condemn Hamas, or the babies get it!", is the position that you are justifying, in a nutshell. Shameful  :-[
..and you are a fool. I remember you were perfectly content with letting Osama Bin Laden ride out the rest of his days in Afghanistan.

Offline gringo

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2023, 02:54:PM »
..and you are a fool. I remember you were perfectly content with letting Osama Bin Laden ride out the rest of his days in Afghanistan.
    And you are also dishonest. I challenge you to find any statement from me where I have even addressed this. Your position now, and this isn't misrepresenting your stance, is that, you are in favour of ending the mass slaughter of civilians but only when everyone condemns Hamas. You really don't realise how contrary to world opinion you are on this. The entire world is disgusted by US/UK backed Israeli aggression against a helpless civilian population. It would be more apt to condemn the IDF, but everyone else recognises the priority is to end the brutality against civilians. Except you, and the usual suspects.


Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2023, 03:04:PM »
    And you are also dishonest. I challenge you to find any statement from me where I have even addressed this. Your position now, and this isn't misrepresenting your stance, is that, you are in favour of ending the mass slaughter of civilians but only when everyone condemns Hamas. You really don't realise how contrary to world opinion you are on this. The entire world is disgusted by US/UK backed Israeli aggression against a helpless civilian population. It would be more apt to condemn the IDF, but everyone else recognises the priority is to end the brutality against civilians. Except you, and the usual suspects.
The terrorists have to be flushed out or they will use the ceasefire or humanitarian pause to regroup. Everyone knows this except yourself.

Offline gringo

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2023, 03:30:PM »
Gringo, you fail to mention the fact that the vast majority of Jews that moved from Europe to the British Mandate of Palestine from 1933 till 1946 were Holocaust survivors. Who no longer felt safe being an ethnic minority and no longer felt safe in Europe. Amin al-Husseini being complicit in the Holocaust didn't make the Jews feel to friendly towards the Palestinians either.

Prior to the Nazis, the idea of a Jewish state was nothing but a frivolous abstraction that would never have worked. Even if Napolean Bonaparte could live up to his proclamation, it would never have lasted. Post 1945 it was seen as a necessity.

You are trying to portray the creation of modern Israel in a vacuum and that is was created for the sake of it. Which is complete dishonesty on your part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
     The notion that prior to the Nazis, the idea of a Jewish state being a "frivolous abstraction" is  historically illiterate, David. The Balfour Agreement in 1917 and the events born of this can hardly be described as, "a frivolous abstraction". The Jews who moved from Europe from 1933 onwards are the architects of the problem in Palestine. That European problem has been exported to the Palestinians. The terror attacks in Palestine by Zionist terrorist militia(Stern Gang, Irgun et al.), the ethnic cleansing and genocide committed by them is straight out colonialism, land theft and genocide.
     Lord Balfour and the UK state bear more responsibility for the creation of Israel than the Nazis. Israel is the bastard child of Imperialists and their backers, not Jewish persecution. That is just the cover story.  The Haavara agreement that you linked is an interesting part of that history, but must be seen in that wider context rather than as a stand alone event. Ken Livingstone was attacked and sacked for "anti semitism" for even raising the issue of Haavara.
    Zionism was a fringe issue to the majority of Jews but was pushed and promoted by bankers and financial interests. This is evidenced by the fact that the Balfour Agreement was given to Lord Rothschild who represented the "Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland". See below from wiki;

The declaration was contained in a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. The text of the declaration was published in the press on 9 November 1917.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

     Why were such powerful interests attempting to create the conditions for a state in Palestine for Jews despite only 1% of Jews at this time being Zionists? It didn't start with the Nazis, David.
   
 

Offline gringo

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2023, 03:38:PM »
The terrorists have to be flushed out or they will use the ceasefire or humanitarian pause to regroup. Everyone knows this except yourself.
    Not reading the room very well are you, Steve. World opinion and all humanitarian agencies all seem to "know" the direct opposite of what you believe. The UN vote at the UNSC, all UN General Assembly votes on the issue, statements by many humanitarian agencies(Amnesty, Doctors without Borders, MSF, Red Cross, Red Crescent etc) contradict you. "Everyone" is appalled by the actions of US/UK attempting to make it all about Hamas. You stand with monsters against the rest of the world.

Offline gringo

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2023, 03:54:PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-study
     The 61% civilian deaths claimed by Israel are an obvious lie. It is recognised by all independent NGO's that the proportion of women and children alone is 70% of deaths. The indiscriminate bombing by Israel hasn't even targeted Hamas, they are deliberately targeting civilians, press and medical staff. It is not possible to believe such a self evidently false claim. We have all seen the bombed hospitals and UN shelters etc., and such preposterous claims as that being made are an offence against our own eyes and reason, Roch.

Offline David1819

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2023, 04:09:PM »
     The notion that prior to the Nazis, the idea of a Jewish state being a "frivolous abstraction" is  historically illiterate, David. The Balfour Agreement in 1917 and the events born of this can hardly be described as, "a frivolous abstraction".
   

Yes it was. And it would never have worked (in my opinion) without the Holocaust. There would not be enough Jewish diaspora returning in order to make it happen. They are not going to leave a continent they have lived in for millenia for no apparent reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricha

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2023, 04:27:PM »
    Not reading the room very well are you, Steve. World opinion and all humanitarian agencies all seem to "know" the direct opposite of what you believe. The UN vote at the UNSC, all UN General Assembly votes on the issue, statements by many humanitarian agencies(Amnesty, Doctors without Borders, MSF, Red Cross, Red Crescent etc) contradict you. "Everyone" is appalled by the actions of US/UK attempting to make it all about Hamas. You stand with monsters against the rest of the world.
Maybe because some of them are ignorant of Hamas, or do not wish to rock the boat and relinquish their posts. https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Offline gringo

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2023, 04:35:PM »
Yes it was. And it would never have worked (in my opinion) without the Holocaust. There would not be enough Jewish diaspora returning in order to make it happen. They are not going to leave a continent they have lived in for millenia for no apparent reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricha

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present
   It(Zionism) was, we agree, not a popular idea amongst the Jewish diaspora. To call it a frivolous abstraction is wrong, however. It was an idea pushed and promoted by very powerful interests. Those powerful interests co-opted governments, hence Balfour Agreement. What interests were being served by the Balfour Agreement, do you think?
      That Zionism could not have worked without the Holocaust is an interesting observation. The financiers and corporate interests were able to use a tragedy(WW2), that they financed, to ultimately achieve their goals of a colonial state in Palestine, as per their plans before and during WW1. You're nearly there, David.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2023, 04:36:PM by gringo »

Offline Roch

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2023, 05:15:PM »
     The 61% civilian deaths claimed by Israel are an obvious lie. It is recognised by all independent NGO's that the proportion of women and children alone is 70% of deaths. The indiscriminate bombing by Israel hasn't even targeted Hamas, they are deliberately targeting civilians, press and medical staff. It is not possible to believe such a self evidently false claim. We have all seen the bombed hospitals and UN shelters etc., and such preposterous claims as that being made are an offence against our own eyes and reason, Roch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67670679

Offline David1819

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2023, 05:31:PM »
   It(Zionism) was, we agree, not a popular idea amongst the Jewish diaspora. To call it a frivolous abstraction is wrong, however. It was an idea pushed and promoted by very powerful interests. Those powerful interests co-opted governments, hence Balfour Agreement. What interests were being served by the Balfour Agreement, do you think?
      That Zionism could not have worked without the Holocaust is an interesting observation. The financiers and corporate interests were able to use a tragedy(WW2), that they financed, to ultimately achieve their goals of a colonial state in Palestine, as per their plans before and during WW1. You're nearly there, David.

I never said it wasn't popular. I don't know whether it was popular on not. It being a frivolous abstraction prior to ww2 is simply my own view. You can agree or disagree.

The fact of the matter is, after the Balfour agreement and the British mandate there was no Zionist state for 31 years. There was however a Zionist state just three years the Holocaust ended. Its rather obvious what event caused its inception.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2023, 05:44:PM by David1819 »

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Israel-Born from terror 1948- Died of terror 202?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2023, 08:05:PM »
    You are a monster. I don't think you are aware of how poorly this reflects on you. The overwhelming majority of the world is appalled at the veto of the US and abstention of the UK. Taking the position, as they and you have, that the slaughter should stop, but only if we also condemn Hamas is shameful beyond words. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths already and any future deaths held to ransom unless Hamas are "condemned".

    "Condemn Hamas, or the babies get it!", is the position that you are justifying, in a nutshell. Shameful  :-[

You put that very well gringo.