false flag attack

[David1819]

[gringo]

oh yes they di isreal funded them they funded there election campaghn  and as for elected  they were elected 20 years ago and there have been no elections since

    Misrepresented and removed from context "factoids" are not the same as evidence and facts, nugs. If Hamas are merely Israeli agents as you suggest, then what do you think the strategy is? At the moment, in world opinion, Hamas are humiliating the Israelis. The treatment of hostages/prisoners being one example. Israel are making sure that world opinion moves against them en masse and in favour of Hamas and Palestinian resistance. How does this serve the Zionists? If Hamas are simply a tool of Israel, then what is this strategy unfolding?
     Israel wanted Hamas to be elected to justify the blockade that they then put in place immediately after Hamas were elected. It isn't because Hamas are their tool. Why have their been no elections since then, do you think nugs? They are under occupation and blockade! If you add the further context to these factoids then it becomes clearer. Nothing happens on its own independent of any other history or context, nugs. Each of these and any other "facts" always require further questioning. Who? When? Why?

[nugnug]

the october the 7th attack gave isreal the ecuse to start bombing and driing out the palsteinions thats what there doing now becouse they want what is under gazzas siol hamas gave then the excuse for the final solution

the fact there losing the pr  war has little to do with hamas an more to do with how shit they are  at pr and the fact its very hardd to put a postive spin on genocide

[gringo]

the october the 7th attack gave isreal the ecuse to start bombing and driing out the palsteinions thats what there doing now becouse they want what is under gazzas siol hamas gave then the excuse for the final solution

the fact there losing the pr  war has little to do with hamas an more to do with how shit pr and the fact its ery hardd to put a postive spin on genocide

    Yes, we agree that October 7th gave Israel to excuse to attack. Where we differ is that you seem to believe that Hamas attacked somehow at the behest of Israel rather than as an act of resistance designed to wake up the world to act. The knowledge that we now have of Israel being warned specifically of this attack points more to LIHOP (let it happen on purpose than to an outright false flag). events since support this view in my view, nugs.

[nugnug]

    Yes, we agree that October 7th gave Israel to excuse to attack. Where we differ is that you seem to believe that Hamas attacked somehow at the behest of Israel rather than as an act of resistance designed to wake up the world to act. The knowledge that we now have of Israel being warned specifically of this attack points more to LIHOP (let it happen on purpose than to an outright false flag). events since support this view in my view, nugs.

hamas must of guessed what  isreal were going to do i mean isreal has a history of over reacting it wouldent e hard to predict what would happen

but hamas made no preperation for a counter attack even though must of known there was going to be one

[gringo]

hamas must of guessed what  isreal were going to do i mean isreal has a history it wouldent e hard to predict what would happen

but hamas made no preperation for a counter attack even though must of known there was going to be one

    The Hamas counter to the obvious coming retaliation was prepared though, nugs. Hamas, obviously, lack the fire power to "counter attack" in any traditional sense. The assymmetry between the forces dictates that their response must also be assymmetrical. The taking of military hostages was part of this preparation. As is well known the last captured IDF soldier, Gilad Shalit, was exchanged for over 1,000 Palestinians held by Israel. Hamas have well over a hundred IDF soldiers this time. What happens in another week, two weeks, a month? All of this by non-state actors. This is also deliberate, in my view. As cynical as it sounds, the more civilians that Israel murder, the more they lose. When the day after comes, and it will because it must, Israel and Empire will be agreeing to the terms dictated to them by a horrified world, backed by the state might of Russia, China and Iran.
     It also seems clear that there is some collaboration between the disparate members of the "Axis of Resistance". Yemen's Houthis are squeezing the Israelis and Empire economically with their threats to Israeli shipping in the Red Sea. Two Israel linked cargo ships attacked earlier today, with USS Carney being dragged into action. Illegal US bases in Iraq and Syria are under increasing attacks from resistance groups in Iraq, aligned with Hezbollah. These can keep on ramping up until the US get the message. Hezbollah themselves are increasing their attacks on Israel bases on the Lebanese border leading to a mass exodus of the settlements there. The response, simply put, has been to open multiple fronts for Israel and their sponsors which are becoming increasingly unmanageable.
     Slaughtering civilians doesn't win wars. They need to defeat the resistance for that and they are no nearer to that goal, if anything they are much further away.

[gringo]

hamas must of guessed what  isreal were going to do i mean isreal has a history it wouldent e hard to predict what would happen

but hamas made no preperation for a counter attack even though must of known there was going to be one

    Israel, much like Ukraine, nugs, ceases to exist once Western funding dries up. Slow and steady has bled Western economies, once the tap is shut off, it is all over. That day is looming closer. Empire's and Israel's actions look like desperate last minute Hail Mary passes because that is what they are. IDF losses mounting, soldiers in captivity and I(srael with zero chance of achieving their war aims.
     It seems to me that Israel let October 7th happen but that things quickly escalated out of their control. They certainly didn't intend hundreds of captured IDF, which has led to the wild and desperate response. They are slaughtering with impunity now, but this will not end well for the Zionists.

[nugnug]

what good is geting your hostages released if theres noyhing for them to return to becouse isreal has blown it up

[gringo]

he
what good is geting your hostages released if theres noyhing for them to return to becouse isreal has blown it up

    I don't think anyone anticipated the level of brutality unleashed. The barbarism unleashed by Israel has shocked everyone but is not a strategy of a winner. It is a scorched earth policy employed by those facing desperation and defeat. Lives can't be replaced but infrastructure and homes can be and will be. The Palestinians will have plenty of assistance in doing this when the day after comes. Gaza is not going to be left uninhabited.
     The let it happen on purpose far better explains events since which are clearly not in Israel's interests. The straight up false flag scenario is full of too many holes and unanswerable questions. It makes no sense that Israel have created a false flag attack in cohoots with Hamas, that has trashed their international standing and led to a coalition and coming together of world opinion that will likely lead to the demise of Israel itself. At the minimum, Israel will be forced vacate all illegal settlements beyond the 1948 partition plan. At worst, or best depending on your view, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish state and a one state solution will be imposed.

[nugnug]

    I don't think anyone anticipated the level of brutality unleashed. The barbarism unleashed by Israel has shocked everyone but is not a strategy of a winner. It is a scorched earth policy employed by those facing desperation and defeat. Lives can't be replaced but infrastructure and homes can be and will be. The Palestinians will have plenty of assistance in doing this when the day after comes. Gaza is not going to be left uninhabited.
     The let it happen on purpose far better explains events since which are clearly not in Israel's interests. The straight up false flag scenario is full of too many holes and unanswerable questions. It makes no sense that Israel have created a false flag attack in cohoots with Hamas, that has trashed their international standing and led to a coalition and coming together of world opinion that will likely lead to the demise of Israel itself. At the minimum, Israel will be forced vacate all illegal settlements beyond the 1948 partition plan. At worst, or best depending on your view, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish state and a one state solution will be imposed.

so nobody guessed that country with a history of extremly brutal responces would respond brutely

[gringo]

so nobody guessed that country with a history of extremly brutal responces would respond brutely

     The "level" of brutality was not anticipated, nugs. Everybody guessed that their would be a brutal response. The previous precedents, Operation Cast Lead etc., of Israeli brutality although barbaric would not lead anyone to "expect" the sheer level of barbarism this time which is magnitudes greater.
     There is no need to attempt to put words into my mouth, nugs. I have been perfectly clear. You know that I didn't say what you attribute to me very well. I have answered your queries about what you believe to be anomalies in the LIHOP scenario. The false flag in cohoots with Hamas makes no sense and you haven't attempted to make it make sense. How do Israel benefit? What is the strategy that makes sense of this?   

[nugnug]

funny when i discuss poltics these days i seem to upset both sides

[gringo]

funny when i discuss poltics these days i seem to upset both sides

     You haven't upset me, nugs. I agree with you on most things and where we disagree is minor. Just having a discussion with you over the false flag/LIHOP scenarios doesn't cause me any upset. I would hope that you don't take offence over tiny disagreements either, nugs. None is intended. If I intend to cause offence, I am perfectly capable of making it crystal clear.
     Trying to get to the bottom of what, why and how October 7th occurred is certain to cause some disagreement. If I were so easily upset I wouldn't debate contentious issues. Written words on a discussion board will never offend me, I am way too thick skinned for that.

[Roch]

   What "war crimes" do you think Hamas should be indicted for, Roch? We have only the word of lying Zionists that Hamas committed beheadings, rapes, mass slaughter etc. All of those accusations, as previously noted, have had a shelf life of days before falling apart under the slightest questioning.
     Israel's crimes on the other hand have been advertised in advance, live-streamed for the world to see and then bragged about. International law is clear that occupied people have the right to resist, including armed resistance. Israel are recognised as an occupying power and anything Hamas have done, that is proven and established, is a legitimate response to the brutal and illegal occupation.
     Everything requires full context. There is simply zero equivalence between the alleged crimes of Hamas and the advertised in advance war crimes of the Zionists. One are an occupied people whilst the other is a 75 year long and ongoing land stealing, ethnic cleansing and genocidal occupation. It is equivalent to investigating both a rapist and his victim for fighting back.
   

I was giving Israel the benefit of the doubt that atrocities were committed by Hamas on 7/10. Not that all Israeli claims of such are necessarily bonafide.  This is why I would like to see it meticulously studied.

[nugnug]

I was giving Israel the benefit of the doubt that atrocities were committed by Hamas on 7/10. Not that all Israeli claims of such are necessarily bonafide.  This is why I would like to see it meticulously studied.

isreal knew about the plan for attack one year before it happend thats a year to put troops at the border and year to move people away from the border they dident do ethere why not the only possble eplantion is they wanted it to happen