Author Topic: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?  (Read 22117 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2023, 05:47:PM »
     None of the four victims effected showed any symptoms associated with taking BZ. Moreover it does not even kill people as shown in the experiments below. The OPCW confirmed that the substance that killed Dawn Sturgess was the same substance found in the Skripals. Thus ruling out BZ all together.

     At least you're consistent. Every "fact" so far claimed by you has turned out to be false and your two latest "facts", not surprisingly, can be shown to be false with even the most cursory research. Whatever agent was used on the Skripals, Navalny and supposedly "found" by Charlie Rowley has caused no deaths so far, as far as we know. Dawn Sturgess cause of death is unknown, because the UK government has made sure that there has been no inquest into her death. It is a leap of faith on your part, based on nothing, that whatever agent overcame Skripals and Navalny is lethal/fatal. Nobody has died. Why does the agent need to be lethal?
     Novichok(A234) which is what we were initially told that the Russians had allegedly deployed would have killed many already if true(both Skripals and any number of responders/contacts and is definitely deadly. But no deaths? We actually know that the agent detected by OPCW/Porton down scientists isn't lethal, which is the exact opposite of what you believe. We know this because no-one is dead. Dawn Sturgess cause of death is unknown, and never will be known now.
     BZ and Fentanyl lead to the sort of confusion, hallucinating, vomiting that all witnesses of the Skripals behaviour on the bench reported. Definitely not Novichok effects. Waving hands in air, staring at sky, confused etc.
    Salisbury hospital obviously believed the effects to be displayed by the Skripals as fentanyl poisoning. They treated them for this for the first 24/48 hours. BZ is the only named substance (albeit leaked) in the OPCW lab reports that we are aware of.
    Fentanyl is a possibility. BZ is a possibility. There is evidence that supports both of these contentions. There is no evidence of Novichok and it is not a possibility and can be ruled out by anyone objective. Clinging to the "Novichok" deception despite the complete lack of any supporting evidence and a mountain of contradictory evidence is proof of the aphorism that;  "It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled"



Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2023, 06:17:PM »
     Hilariously, all of the "evidence" that you post to prove that I was being dishonest when I stated that the OPCW have never identified Novichok, not only proves my point but also makes clear that whatever was identified in the samples of the Skripals and Navalny definitely wasn't Novichok.
     How can we know this? Careful reading of the letter that you linked to and quoted from earlier makes this clear. The letter that doesn't "necessarily reflect the views of all organizations and individuals within the CWC Coalition.".

    Novichok agents, also known as fourth generation agents (FGA), are a class of nerve agents
developed by the Soviet Union during the Cold War. These nerve agents emerged as a modern
CW threat due to their use in the attempted assassinations of Sergey Skripal in April 2018, in
Salisbury (UK), and Alexei Navalny in August 2020, in Omsk (Russia).
Novichok agents can be divided into four families of chemicals based on their chemical
structures. The 2019 amendment to the CWC schedules provides comprehensive coverage of two
of these families, partial coverage of a third family, and no coverage of a fourth family. This is
particularly worrisome since the Novichok agent used in the attempted assassination of Navalny
in August 2020 was likely a toxic chemical from that fourth family.
Hence, the next logical step
is for the States Parties to extend the coverage of Novichoks by the CWC Schedules by adopting
a family-based approach for all four groups of Novichok agents.


     So the agent identified in samples from the Skripals and Navalny was "likely" from a fourth "family" used in the "attempted assassination". "Attempted assassination" should have made you aware that it isn't an official OPCW communique. An official body would never use such charged language unless the charge was proven.
     The agent identified, therefore, is definitely not a Novichok. The partisan authors and co-signers of the letter are "requesting" that the agent be added to the Novichok family.
     Given that we have been told, repeatedly, that Russia must have done it because they developed Novichoks, it seems odd that this is a new type of agent("likely" from a toxic chemical from a fourth family) which our partisan authors, are requesting is listed as a Novichok.  So the agent in question identified is not listed as a Novichok.
     The agent in fact is part of some other previously unidentified "fourth" family of Novichoks. Whatever agent was used, pressure is now being exerted on the OPCW to list an entirely new fourth family.
      Well done for finding this letter, David. In your failed attempt at proving that the OPCW have identified Novichok use, you inadvertently discovered the attempts by partisan actors to widen and include new agents as being in Novichok class of agents to four families. Widening the "parameters" of what constitutes Novichoks so as to be able later to claim that Novichok is defenitely identified. If you cannot see through the attempted deceptions, it can only be wilful at this point.
     

Offline David1819

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2023, 03:50:PM »
Salisbury Novichok poisoning victim whose partner died plans to sue Russia

"Mr Rowley has told The Sun he has a team of lawyers looking into the possibility of suing the Russian state for Ms Sturgess’ subsequent death and the loss of his home due to contamination"

https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/03/salisbury-novichok-poisoning-victim-whose-partner-died-to-sue-russia-18546201/

Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2023, 04:18:PM »
    David, now that is proven that the OPCW have never reported any findings of Novichok use-does this new fact (to you anyway) not affect your opinion in any way? Now that all we are left with in the Novichok narrative are media reports based on no evidence, what is it that informs your belief that Novichok was used in Salisbury.
    The wild goose chase that you went on searching for the elusive OPCW report/findings only confirmed exactly what I told you at the beginning. The UK invited the OPCW only to confirm their own (UK govt.) findings were accurate. Those findings were to remain confidential. No Full Fact Finding Mission for the OPCW, which given the gravity of the allegations being made, demanded nothing less.

     Can you elaborate the facts that you now rely on to support your conspiracy theory about Novichok being used in Salisbury?
     Or is it just that you prefer ignorance and knee jerk bigotry, rather than facts, to inform your "opinions".
     Don't bother going on another fruitless search for the elusive OPCW endorsed evidence. It doesn't exist no matter how many google searches you perform. Ask yourself why it doesn't exist. Then when you realise it doesn't exist because the UK govt. made sure to prevent any impartial investigation, ask why that would be. Then ask why they made sure to keep their own findings confidential whilst running a disinfo campaign through the media accusing Russia of a chemical weapon attack. If all of this is true then how come Article 5 wasn't called for. There is literally zero evidence of Novichok use in Salisbury. There are only media stories.
     There is ample evidence that Novichok wasn't used.
     What is your continued belief now based on?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2023, 08:00:PM »
    David, now that is proven that the OPCW have never reported any findings of Novichok use-does this new fact (to you anyway) not affect your opinion in any way? Now that all we are left with in the Novichok narrative are media reports based on no evidence, what is it that informs your belief that Novichok was used in Salisbury.
    The wild goose chase that you went on searching for the elusive OPCW report/findings only confirmed exactly what I told you at the beginning. The UK invited the OPCW only to confirm their own (UK govt.) findings were accurate. Those findings were to remain confidential. No Full Fact Finding Mission for the OPCW, which given the gravity of the allegations being made, demanded nothing less.

     Can you elaborate the facts that you now rely on to support your conspiracy theory about Novichok being used in Salisbury?
     Or is it just that you prefer ignorance and knee jerk bigotry, rather than facts, to inform your "opinions".
     Don't bother going on another fruitless search for the elusive OPCW endorsed evidence. It doesn't exist no matter how many google searches you perform. Ask yourself why it doesn't exist. Then when you realise it doesn't exist because the UK govt. made sure to prevent any impartial investigation, ask why that would be. Then ask why they made sure to keep their own findings confidential whilst running a disinfo campaign through the media accusing Russia of a chemical weapon attack. If all of this is true then how come Article 5 wasn't called for. There is literally zero evidence of Novichok use in Salisbury. There are only media stories.
     There is ample evidence that Novichok wasn't used.
     What is your continued belief now based on?
How did Dawn Sturgess die?

Offline David1819

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2023, 09:01:PM »
Gringo probably believed the Russians when they said the Germans were to blame for Katyn massacre. He probably believed this right until Mikhail Gorbachev finally admitted it was the Russians.

Gringo probably also believed John Demjanjuk was Ivan the terrible and the KGB documents were genuine, until the Soviet archives laid bare proved that the KGB documents were all forgeries.

The same will happen again once Putin's government is long gone and their successors are not interested in keeping up with the lies (vranyo) of their predecessors. More evidence will one day emerge from the Russians themselves only to prove what every reasonable person already knew and the Tankies will be red faced (again).

https://glossophilia.org/2018/09/vranyo-a-previously-untranslatable-russian-word/
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 09:02:PM by David1819 »

Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2023, 10:16:PM »
How did Dawn Sturgess die?
    Something that nobody will ever know because the UK govt. made sure there was no post mortem to establish cause of death and turned to the old favourite "public inquiry". If you are suggesting that Dawn Sturgess death is from Novichok poisoning then I am afraid that you come across the same problem that I have described. There is zero official recognition of Novichok anywhere. Even all court papers refer only to, "Novichok, or a closely related agent", which is meaningless. The relationship appears to be, "cholerestinase inhibition", or so it appears from the explanations put forward by uk media and gov. The cause of death will be decided in the much delayed "public inquiry";

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-65068214
 
    If you were looking for Novichok use, Cholerestinase inhibition wouldn't get a mention. It is an effect of many drugs and is a "broad class of compounds used in a wide range of medicines and poisons". In other words it doesn't come close to identifying Novichok. Focusing on "cholerestinase inhibition" to establish Novichok use makes no sense and establishes nothing of the sort. It makes clear that Novichok wasn't used.
    You have fallen for the old trick of believing a lie just because it was repeated enough. If you were to look for actual evidence you would find there is none, just endless repeated stories and rumours. Smoke and mirrors.
    Where do you think Yulia Skripal is?

Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2023, 10:41:PM »
Gringo probably believed the Russians when they said the Germans were to blame for Katyn massacre. He probably believed this right until Mikhail Gorbachev finally admitted it was the Russians.

Gringo probably also believed John Demjanjuk was Ivan the terrible and the KGB documents were genuine, until the Soviet archives laid bare proved that the KGB documents were all forgeries.

The same will happen again once Putin's government is long gone and their successors are not interested in keeping up with the lies (vranyo) of their predecessors. More evidence will one day emerge from the Russians themselves only to prove what every reasonable person already knew and the Tankies will be red faced (again).

https://glossophilia.org/2018/09/vranyo-a-previously-untranslatable-russian-word/
    Instead of imagining what I believe in several unrelated topics, what is your stated belief of GRU agents smearing Novichok on door handles before going window shopping in Salisbury now based on? Previously, before your wild goose chase, it was based on your belief that Novichok has been identified by the OPCW. Now that you are aware that the OPCW have not identified Novichok as being used in Salisbury, what is your continued belief in this scenario based on?
     If you were here to debate honestly then you would be troubled by the non identification by the OPCW. This fact and the UK governments role in making sure that the OPCW weren't asked to do a full FFM or from identifying the substance named by the UK government would cause a re-evaluation if you were interested in getting to the bottom of events in Salisbury. It doesn't trouble you because you aren't interested in uncomfortable truths.
     You spent long enough searching for the elusive confirmation by the OPCW, so you obviously do realise that it is the main premise your whole theory relies on. Without OPCW confirmation-what do you have?

   
     

Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2023, 12:58:AM »
How did Dawn Sturgess die?
    From the BBC article about the delayed "public enquiry;

"The previous inquest into her death was converted into a public inquiry to allow it to have access to top secret intelligence which will be considered in private.
Lawyers acting on behalf of the government have defended the "exceptional" disclosure delays at Friday's hearing, saying sensitive information has been found in more than 1,000 documents.

The counsel to the Dawn Sturgess inquiry, Andrew O'Connor KC, said there is "still some way to go" and his team would not be ready for substantive hearings until the "middle or end of next year".

The government's KC, Cathryn McGahey, told a hearing at the Royal Courts of Justice on Friday that anything "put on any open system is no longer secure", saying redactions were necessary to protect sensitive information from the "hostile state that is Russia".

On Friday, the family's KC, Michael Mansfield, told the hearing the family wanted rolling disclosure, including CCTV of Yulia Skripal allegedly being followed upon her arrival in the UK.

He told the court there "must be some material that could be released without sensitivities".
"

     No cause of death after 5 years, no inquest-only a much delayed (October 2024, the new supposed start date) "Public Inquiry" held in secret with most of the evidence withheld on "security grounds". Why was an inquest prevented? Cause of death-simple. The UK government could still have held a "public inquiry" and one which would be way better informed. The cause of death would, could and should be already known. Coroner's inquest would have solved this. UK prevented an inquest as well as an independent investigation by the OPCW.
     Belief in the fantastical conspiracy that has been constructed by UK government and media is based only on wishful thinking mixed with confirmation bias.
     

     

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2023, 04:38:PM »
    Something that nobody will ever know because the UK govt. made sure there was no post mortem to establish cause of death and turned to the old favourite "public inquiry". If you are suggesting that Dawn Sturgess death is from Novichok poisoning then I am afraid that you come across the same problem that I have described. There is zero official recognition of Novichok anywhere. Even all court papers refer only to, "Novichok, or a closely related agent", which is meaningless. The relationship appears to be, "cholerestinase inhibition", or so it appears from the explanations put forward by uk media and gov. The cause of death will be decided in the much delayed "public inquiry";

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-65068214
 
    If you were looking for Novichok use, Cholerestinase inhibition wouldn't get a mention. It is an effect of many drugs and is a "broad class of compounds used in a wide range of medicines and poisons". In other words it doesn't come close to identifying Novichok. Focusing on "cholerestinase inhibition" to establish Novichok use makes no sense and establishes nothing of the sort. It makes clear that Novichok wasn't used.
    You have fallen for the old trick of believing a lie just because it was repeated enough. If you were to look for actual evidence you would find there is none, just endless repeated stories and rumours. Smoke and mirrors.
    Where do you think Yulia Skripal is?
A long way away. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1574320/sergei-skripal-yulia-skripal-salisbury-novichok-poisoning-russian-sky-spt


Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2023, 05:28:PM »
A long way away. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1574320/sergei-skripal-yulia-skripal-salisbury-novichok-poisoning-russian-sky-spt
    Yulia Skripal is either dead, or at best held against her will somewhere. UK government have a duty to provide proof of life and that she is acting with free will. Yulia got out a couple of calls which were reported in which she expressed to her cousin that she and her father would be returning to Russia. Seemingly a nurse let her use her phone as all communication devices had been taken from the Skripals. the UK gov then set up some staged statement which was shown on UK News. Despite the surroundings being non descript, the location was geo-located as a RAF base. The UK government also refused consular access to the Russians.
     We have no evidence that Yulia Skripal is acting under free will or even alive and every suggestion that the opposite is true. You should not be giving your government a free pass on things like this.

Offline gringo

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2023, 05:30:PM »
Probably neighbours with some of the Manchester victims.
   More likely neighbours with Julian Assange

Offline David1819

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2023, 09:17:PM »
    Instead of imagining what I believe in several unrelated topics, what is your stated belief of GRU agents smearing Novichok on door handles before going window shopping in Salisbury now based on? Previously, before your wild goose chase, it was based on your belief that Novichok has been identified by the OPCW. Now that you are aware that the OPCW have not identified Novichok as being used in Salisbury, what is your continued belief in this scenario based on?
     If you were here to debate honestly then you would be troubled by the non identification by the OPCW. This fact and the UK governments role in making sure that the OPCW weren't asked to do a full FFM or from identifying the substance named by the UK government would cause a re-evaluation if you were interested in getting to the bottom of events in Salisbury. It doesn't trouble you because you aren't interested in uncomfortable truths.
     You spent long enough searching for the elusive confirmation by the OPCW, so you obviously do realise that it is the main premise your whole theory relies on. Without OPCW confirmation-what do you have?

   
   

I have already answered all of this in Replies #21 #39 #61 #62 #63.  I am not going round circles with someone who does not live in reality.

Russia Today(TV-Novosti) was fined buy Ofcom for its coverage of the Sailsbury poisoning. They defended themselves, appealed (and failed) using nothing but freedom of expression legislation as their defence. If that's the best argument they could put forth then that says its all.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/RT-v-Ofcom-approved-judgment-27.3.20.pdf


Offline Roch

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Re: The Skripals-the obvious lies of the UK gov-what really happened?
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2023, 09:32:PM »
I have already answered all of this in Replies #21 #39 #61 #62 #63.  I am not going round circles with someone who does not live in reality.

Russia Today(TV-Novosti) was fined buy Ofcom for its coverage of the Sailsbury poisoning. They defended themselves, appealed (and failed) using nothing but freedom of expression legislation as their defence. If that's the best argument they could put forth then that says its all.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/RT-v-Ofcom-approved-judgment-27.3.20.pdf

Is that the same OfCom Jeremy Bamber complained to about Kerry Danes who made unsubstantiated claims?