The magic bullets

[Roch]

Firstly Dr Caruso was working off images.

This a typical fallback position regarding any marks that have been revaluated as a result of images which were fought over for release being examined. If we take this approach, we might as well say that in any case, once a pathologist has determined what is or isn't present on a deceased person's body, that determination can never be challenged at a later date.  Sorry but this is silly, not realistic and unworkable in terms of pathology governance.

[David1819]

I also do not understand how RWC could dismantle the silencer before sending it to the lab and not find the 'flake'.

He goes into detail about this handwritten COLP notes. Unfortunately mike uploaded photos of these notes in very poor lighting and are illegible. Hopefully NGB1066 can upload them at some stage should he get a chance.

[snow66!]

This a typical fallback position regarding any marks that have been revaluated as a result of images which were fought over for release being examined. If we take this approach, we might as well say that in any case, once a pathologist has determined what is or isn't present on a deceased person's body, that determination can never be challenged at a later date.  Sorry but this is silly, not realistic and unworkable in terms of pathology governance.

Of course,well said Roch.

[killingeve]

This a typical fallback position regarding any marks that have been revaluated as a result of images which were fought over for release being examined. If we take this approach, we might as well say that in any case, once a pathologist has determined what is or isn't present on a deceased person's body, that determination can never be challenged at a later date.  Sorry but this is silly, not realistic and unworkable in terms of pathology governance.

That's your opinion.  The courts will take the view that the opinion of the pathologist who undertook the pm's and saw the victims in-situ will take precedence over all others.  And since under cross examination Dr Vanezis concluded the marks were a "mystery" I am afraid that's the end of that!

No idea why supporters are so keen for the marks to be burns? 

[killingeve]

Of course,well said Roch.

Roch is wrong.

[killingeve]

The silencer was 2.5cm in diameter where as the barrel was only 1cm. Its also worth mentioning that Malcom Fletcher believed they were burns caused by the barrel also, its written in his notes. Something that was never disclosed to the defence at trial.

Just for the record I have seen the CCRCs reasons against Caruso and I am not convinced by their counter arguments at all. It has not changed my view. 

Malcolm Fletcher is not an expert in burns/pathology and not in a postion to give an opinion.

The CCRC wil be relying on the evidence at trial from Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight.

[killingeve]

I would like to see it too. I share her view that the lab manipulated the blood in the silencer evidence (see my posts). Even without using the blood samples at the lab MF had access to SC's blood when he received PV20 from Taylor. It had blood in the receptacle  I also do not understand how RWC could dismantle the silencer before sending it to the lab and not find the 'flake'.

There's no evidence the relatives dismantled the silencer. 

[Bubo bubo]

He goes into detail about this handwritten COLP notes. Unfortunately mike uploaded photos of these notes in very poor lighting and are illegible. Hopefully NGB1066 can upload them at some stage should he get a chance.

The flake was loose and not stuck to a baffle plate. I recall (but I may be misremembering) that the flake only manifested itself after JB's Blood expert's first report which at that stage stated the minute amounts of blood could not be 'typed' but on finer testing for particular 'signatures' it could be a mixture from NB and June.

[killingeve]

The flake was loose and not stuck to a baffle plate. I recall (but I may be misremembering) that the flake only manifested itself after JB's Blood expert's first report which at that stage stated the minute amounts of blood could not be 'typed' but on finer testing for particular 'signatures' it could be a mixture from NB and June.

You are misremembering. 

[Bubo bubo]

There's no evidence the relatives dismantled the silencer.

I agree but why attribute this to my thinking. The only evidence would appear to be DRB saying he tried to unscrew the end cap.

[Bubo bubo]

You are misremembering.

Give us the facts about what happened then.

[Roch]

That's your opinion.  The courts will take the view that the opinion of the pathologist who undertook the pm's and saw the victims in-situ will take precedence over all others.  And since under cross examination Dr Vanezis concluded the marks were a "mystery" I am afraid that's the end of that!

No idea why supporters are so keen for the marks to be burns?

That's more about attempting to protect the reputation of Vanezis than it is about finding the truth.

Harold Shipman probably diagnosed his victims. That doesn't mean his findings shouldn't be challenged. 

[Roch]

Roch is wrong.

So you are saying that it's not possible to later challenge through the courts a pathologists findings.. because 'the pathologist was working from the body and not just from photographs'. 

I think you are making this up as you go along.  Your adherence to original experts' findings is like some blind-spot adoration.

[Bubo bubo]

The silencer was 2.5cm in diameter where as the barrel was only 1cm. Its also worth mentioning that Malcom Fletcher believed they were burns caused by the barrel also, its written in his notes. Something that was never disclosed to the defence at trial.

Just for the record I have seen the CCRCs reasons against Caruso and I am not convinced by their counter arguments at all. It has not changed my view. 

Be careful David. MF was a ballistics expert (so called) not a burns expert. He was re-enforcing the EP line to make JB look cruel

[David1819]

Be careful David. MF was a ballistics expert (so called) not a burns expert. He was re-enforcing the EP line to make JB look cruel

That makes no sense considering he withheld this information.