Disturbing new Evidence - police show Jeremy photo' of mothers body in kitchen

[mike tesko]

Is this not just one of two possibilities?:

1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.

2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.

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These are good points...

However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...


As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...

Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.

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Angle would be different depending upon length of wall from window opening to corner of adjoining wall where door was / is positioned...

Anyway...

In 1990 I went to whf and looked in through the window in question and you cannot see the door that we are talking about, or enough of it for anybody to be able to say that they could see the body of a person that could have either been the body of a dead male or a dead female?

[shonapugs]

I think that, out of what little evidence that is left, we can be sure that June was shot in her bed, sat up, looked round for Ralph (IMO) then made it as far as the door before finally being shot between her eyes.

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I am not so sure, its as simple as that?

There are conflicting accounts about how many times June was shot whilst she was in bed?

Some say she was shot twice there, other accounts say as many as five times?

Now...

Lets say she was shot twice in bed, or on the bed, these could have been shots fired at her after she fell back onto the bed, as a result of being wounded, when she was out of the bed - so, I don't think you can definitely say that June was in bed when the shooting started, for these reasons...

If June fell back, would she have fallen sideways onto her pillow? Or was she lying on it when she was shot, which, as far as I knew, has always been the theory until tonight?

[mike tesko]

I think that, out of what little evidence that is left, we can be sure that June was shot in her bed, sat up, looked round for Ralph (IMO) then made it as far as the door before finally being shot between her eyes.

--------------------------

I am not so sure, its as simple as that?

There are conflicting accounts about how many times June was shot whilst she was in bed?

Some say she was shot twice there, other accounts say as many as five times?

Now...

Lets say she was shot twice in bed, or on the bed, these could have been shots fired at her after she fell back onto the bed, as a result of being wounded, when she was out of the bed - so, I don't think you can definitely say that June was in bed when the shooting started, for these reasons...

If June fell back, would she have fallen sideways onto her pillow? Or was she lying on it when she was shot, which, as far as I knew, has always been the theory until tonight?

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AAh...

These are good points, those two bullet holes in the pillows disturb me, because I am trying to picture in my minds eye how both of these bullets could relate to June being asleep in bed?

Or were these later shots when June fell back on the bed?

[mike tesko]

June had three exit wounds, didn't she?

Funny how only two loose bullets were found in the pillows, (DRH/35(a), and DRH/35(b), and two other loose bullets (DRH/5 and DRH/9), found elsewhere in the bedroom?

IF JUNE ONLY HAD THREE EXIT WOUNDS, AND RALPH HAD NONE, AND SHEILA HAD NONE, WHERE DID THE ADDITIONAL LOOSE BULLET IN THE MAIN BEDROOM COME FROM?

Ballistics and logistics don't seem to add up in my opinion...

[shonapugs]

Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.

[Roch]

June had three exit wounds, didn't she?

Funny how only two loose bullets were found in the pillows, (DRH/35(a), and DRH/35(b), and two other loose bullets (DRH/5 and DRH/9), found elsewhere in the bedroom?

Ballistics and logistics don't seem to add up in my opinion...

Not to mention the bullet weights and wound sizes.  It's a right bloody puzzle this incident isn't it?  Terrifying as well.  Imagine being part of it when it was happening?

[mike tesko]

Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.

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I take it that you don't like it when somebody like me moves the goalposts, but imagine how someone like Jeremy feels when Essex police did it to him?

[Alias]

Is this not just one of two possibilities?:

1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.

2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.

----------

These are good points...

However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...


As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...

Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.

--------------------

Angle would be different depending upon length of wall from window opening to corner of adjoining wall where door was / is positioned...

Anyway...

In 1990 I went to whf and looked in through the window in question and you cannot see the door that we are talking about, or enough of it for anybody to be able to say that they could see the body of a person that could have either been the body of a dead male or a dead female?

He´s not behind/in front of the door.

[mike tesko]

Why did one of the national newspapers lead with the suggestion that June Bamber had shot and killed four other members of her family?

[shonapugs]

And, to go off topic a bit...something that Grahame posted has made me think. To me, Sheila's left arm shows signs of livor mortis, yet her right arm must have still been pliable enough to have been moved at the wrist and elbow. That arm was higher, and resting on the warmth of her abdomen. Need some serious medical knowledge here, but could that have delayed rigor mortis in that arm slightly longer than the rest of her body?

[mike tesko]

Is this not just one of two possibilities?:

1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.

2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.

----------

These are good points...

However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...


As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...

Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.

--------------------

Angle would be different depending upon length of wall from window opening to corner of adjoining wall where door was / is positioned...

Anyway...

In 1990 I went to whf and looked in through the window in question and you cannot see the door that we are talking about, or enough of it for anybody to be able to say that they could see the body of a person that could have either been the body of a dead male or a dead female?

----------------

I am glad you posted this picture, because the police said and say that no-one moved or touched anything at the scene, until after PC Bird completed the taking of all his crime scene pictures, but if that was / is the case, how did the police manage to get inside the kitchen in the first pace if that wooden chair was there propped up against the internal door through which all the armed police forced their way into the kitchen in order to discover the two bodies?

[shonapugs]

Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.

-------------

I take it that you don't like it when somebody like me moves the goalposts, but imagine how someone like Jeremy feels when Essex police did it to him?
[/quot

I worry when it's you, Mike, because I have faith in you. There's not a fat lot I can do about Essex Police.

[mike tesko]

Scene in region of kitchen was stage managed by the police before PC Bird started to take his crime scene pictures - no doubt about that fact at all...

[mike tesko]

Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.

-------------

I take it that you don't like it when somebody like me moves the goalposts, but imagine how someone like Jeremy feels when Essex police did it to him?
[/quot

I worry when it's you, Mike, because I have faith in you. There's not a fat lot I can do about Essex Police.

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Please bear with me, I am only trying to stimulate and facilitate debate...

[mike tesko]

Right...

I'm off to upload the interviews with Essex police on the other thread - why not take a look and form your views and opinions, and share your ideas and thoughts on them?

Bye...