Author Topic: Burning down of the caravan park shop.  (Read 11162 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2022, 02:31:PM »

But aside from that, it's proven that she was murdered.  Paragraph 518 of the 2002 CoA refers to a piece of forensic science, that for the last 20 years, legally proves that Sheila was murdered.

Michael Turner QC (Jeremy Bamber's defence lawyer at the time) declined to contradict or dismiss that evidence in any way in 2002, which was interpreted by the 3 judges at the 2002 CoA as Michael Turner QC, agreeing with the strength of the evidence.  Which met with no subsequent protest from Michael Turner QC. 

To my knowledge, Jeremy Bamber has never publicly attempted to make any challenge to that evidence.  Privately he may well have done, but if the results favoured the prosecution, then he's not going to make that public. 


That is entirely false.

Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2022, 04:07:PM »
That is entirely false.

That is so often the problem with people that say they don't believe the evidence.  They deny it either through angry personal insults, or a single sentence devoid of any information. 

Which is what you've done here.  No attempt at picking apart the evidence.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.

The silence on this issue from the Jeremy Bamber camp regarding this absolutely critical piece of evidence, is deafening

The fact that you make no effort to explain yourself, means that you probably find the evidence hard to accept, but have no legitimate way of debunking it.

Also legally, 3 CoA judges have said that had it been put to a jury they could have found Jeremy Bamber guilty on that point alone.  There were some caveats to that, but only so that they covered all legal bases.

And that effectively sets a legal precedent. It will be respected in all future CCRC cases, including the one that is currently ongoing.

So, legally it is pretty much set in stone.

But if you are going to disagree with it and dismiss it.  Be brave enough to dismiss it in more than 4 words.  Because 4 words doesn't count.
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Offline David1819

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2022, 04:44:PM »
That is so often the problem with people that say they don't believe the evidence.  They deny it either through angry personal insults, or a single sentence devoid of any information. 

Which is what you've done here.  No attempt at picking apart the evidence.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.

The silence on this issue from the Jeremy Bamber camp regarding this absolutely critical piece of evidence, is deafening

The fact that you make no effort to explain yourself, means that you probably find the evidence hard to accept, but have no legitimate way of debunking it.

Also legally, 3 CoA judges have said that had it been put to a jury they could have found Jeremy Bamber guilty on that point alone.  There were some caveats to that, but only so that they covered all legal bases.

And that effectively sets a legal precedent. It will be respected in all future CCRC cases, including the one that is currently ongoing.

So, legally it is pretty much set in stone.

But if you are going to disagree with it and dismiss it.  Be brave enough to dismiss it in more than 4 words.  Because 4 words doesn't count.

I have already explained to you why it is false in your introduction thread. So did QC/Gascoigne. No need to go round in circles.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 04:45:PM by David1819 »

Offline lookout

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2022, 04:45:PM »
You said 'In normal conditions, Sheila had a violent temper and could turn in seconds'

You were commenting on Sheila's character outside of any mental health issues or breakdowns.

But even during a breakdown, there is no evidence that your appalling comment on her character - laced with anger and ignorance - resembled anything approaching the truth.

You are just using loose words and angry opinion to make Sheila look guilty, because you are struggling to find any actual evidence of guilt.

But aside from that, it's proven that she was murdered.  Paragraph 518 of the 2002 CoA refers to a piece of forensic science, that for the last 20 years, legally proves that Sheila was murdered.

Michael Turner QC (Jeremy Bamber's defence lawyer at the time) declined to contradict or dismiss that evidence in any way in 2002, which was interpreted by the 3 judges at the 2002 CoA as Michael Turner QC, agreeing with the strength of the evidence.  Which met with no subsequent protest from Michael Turner QC. 

To my knowledge, Jeremy Bamber has never publicly attempted to make any challenge to that evidence.  Privately he may well have done, but if the results favoured the prosecution, then he's not going to make that public. 

To my knowledge Jeremy Bamber's supporters have never made any serious, credible challenge to that evidence.  Screaming the words 'corruption' or 'cover up', and flinging insults around doesn't count.






I'm trying to get across how difficult it is dealing with someone who's having a meltdown. Neither Freddie nor the 2 doctors who'd called at Sheila's flat could pacify the woman. The episode came out of the blue when she started punching walls----now tell me if this is normal behaviour ?

It was then suggested that someone picks up a prescription in order to medicate Sheila, then a phone-call to Nevill was made to collect his daughter from Maida Vale which he did next day, to which Nevill then took her to the clinic in Northampton for one last time.

Tell me that you've worked with/experienced such sick people and then you can talk of anger towards those who don't understand, such as yourself and your complete misunderstanding of any severe mental condition.

How dare you accuse me of pointing my " anger " towards Sheila when it's aimed at you and the sheer ignorance of others that don't understand mental illness and all its forms.
In future, aim your remarks at the post and not the poster----minus the drama !

Offline lookout

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2022, 04:48:PM »
Why did Ferguson say in his statement that he'd have " understood if it had just been her mother who'd died " ? Did he know something nobody else did ? Just why did he say that ?

Offline lookout

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2022, 05:05:PM »
Why are the opposition so insulting and accusatory ?

Offline Adam

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2022, 05:20:PM »





I'm trying to get across how difficult it is dealing with someone who's having a meltdown. Neither Freddie nor the 2 doctors who'd called at Sheila's flat could pacify the woman. The episode came out of the blue when she started punching walls----now tell me if this is normal behaviour ?

It was then suggested that someone picks up a prescription in order to medicate Sheila, then a phone-call to Nevill was made to collect his daughter from Maida Vale which he did next day, to which Nevill then took her to the clinic in Northampton for one last time.

Tell me that you've worked with/experienced such sick people and then you can talk of anger towards those who don't understand, such as yourself and your complete misunderstanding of any severe mental condition.

How dare you accuse me of pointing my " anger " towards Sheila when it's aimed at you and the sheer ignorance of others that don't understand mental illness and all its forms.
In future, aim your remarks at the post and not the poster----minus the drama !

Big jump from punching walls to shooting your mother, father, sons & yourself in the head.

As said Nevill would instantly negate Daniel, Nicholas or Sheila if they picked up such a low powered rifle.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 05:27:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2022, 05:22:PM »
I could also go on about the carelessness of the way the guns,etc were stored when there were young children around, but it doesn't mean to say that I'm " angry " towards Nevill, these are your accusatory words which are used to throw a bad light on the poster.
What have I got to be/feel anger about on a forum with faceless people ?

Online ILB

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2022, 11:23:AM »
Big jump from punching walls to shooting your mother, father, sons & yourself in the head.

As said Nevill would instantly negate Daniel, Nicholas or Sheila if they picked up such a low powered rifle.

Big Jump from never showing one iota of violence in your life let alone even a temper to shooting your family dead.

Nobody who knew Bamber recall a violent streak or temper
If yesterday you hated me. Then today you can not stop the love that binds from me to you. And you to me

Offline Adam

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2022, 12:05:PM »
Big Jump from never showing one iota of violence in your life let alone even a temper to shooting your family dead.

Nobody who knew Bamber recall a violent streak or temper

Welcome to the world of the inheritance killer.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online ILB

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2022, 12:46:PM »
Welcome to the world of the inheritance killer.

Well it didn't work. If gulity. £25 maximum prison canteen spend a week. 37 years rotting in the slammer
If yesterday you hated me. Then today you can not stop the love that binds from me to you. And you to me

Offline Adam

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2022, 12:49:PM »
Well it didn't work. If gulity. £25 maximum prison canteen spend a week. 37 years rotting in the slammer

£25?

That will pay for 125 tins of Rice Pudding in Lidls. They sell for 20p a tin.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online ILB

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2022, 12:54:PM »
£25?

That will pay for 125 tins of Rice Pudding in Lidls. They sell for 20p a tin.

I don't think it's quite what Bamber if gulity envisaged for himself
If yesterday you hated me. Then today you can not stop the love that binds from me to you. And you to me

Offline Adam

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2022, 02:17:PM »
I don't think it's quite what Bamber if gulity envisaged for himself

Certainly not while in Amsterdam, St Tropez, London, Pevensey, Eastbourne & Burnham after the massacre.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 02:17:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: Burning down of the caravan park shop.
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2022, 02:44:PM »
I have already explained to you why it is false in your introduction thread. So did QC/Gascoigne. No need to go round in circles.

Refusing to repeat what you've said previously just muddies the waters and confuses things.

You made grandiose statements in your post in my introduction thread, but without any explanation.

You haven't in any way whatsoever explained why Mr Ismails forensic report, which proves that Sheila Caffell was murdered (which none of us has actually seen), is wrong.

But you have said it was wrong.  Which is mind boggling given that you haven't even read it.

But if you want to know why it has been proven that Sheila Caffell was murdered, then read on...

But let's go over the issues properly, which you seem reluctant to do.

Ismails evidence was ruled inadmissible by the COA. Thus the defence had nothing to respond to and neither had to cross examine Ismail for reasons stated above.

Mt Ismails evidence wasn't ruled inadmissible, that is totally misleading. 

The CoA will hear any evidence submitted to it by both defence and prosecution, the same as in a normal court case.

Mr Ismails evidence was submitted by the prosecution, and it was treated in exactly the same way as grounds 1 to 16, which was submitted by the defence.

Michael Turner's job, was to disprove Mr Ismails evidence, which he failed to do.   More on that later.

Micheal Turner's next job is, if you can't disprove the science, then get it slung out on a technicality.

That's what he successfully did. 

The judges agreed that the evidence in theory, was available in 1986, and therefore would not be considered in the final conclusion of the CoA report. 

But it remains a valid piece of evidence, perfectly admissible in a legal sense.  It was just disregarded by the judges when drawing up their final conclusions.

Paragraph 519 from the 2002 CoA states (concerning Mr Ismails evidence):  ...if cross-examination had not revealed flaws in it (which we consider unlikely bearing in mind that there was no application to call any expert evidence to contradict it), had we been on a jury hearing such evidence we might well have been very impressed by it.

The bit in brackets is important, as it applies specifically to the CoA.

That bit in brackets makes very clear that Michael Turner QC, declined to make an application to the judges to call his own expert witness, in order to contradict Mr Ismails evidence.

Put simply Michael Turner QC, couldn't find an expert witness to contradict the evidence.  Remember his job is to disprove everything the prosecution put forward. And they only put forward one piece of evidence.

If Michael Turner QC could have found an expert witness to contradict Mr Ismails evidence, he would have done. Because that would have put a lid on the argument for good. 

It would have killed it off. 

If Michael Turner QC cannot disprove Mr Ismails evidence using his own expert witness, then it remains that Sheila Caffell was murdered.

------------------------

Ismail contends Sheila's head was resting upwards after she was shot.

I don't know where you got that from, but this is how the judges worded it in their final report (The final report is the only thing that matters):

Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet

The CoA judges, in their report, also say this:

...there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force...

That means that the only weight above the body is the head.

So, the back of her head propped against the bedside cabinet, combined with, only the weight above the body is the head; can only mean that her head was vertical against the bedside cabinet, and the body was "lying almost flat on her back".

And that is what Mr Ismails forensic examination discovered, and that is a predicted final resting position after death.  So please don't say 'where are the photos'. Surely you know the answer to that?

Given that Sheila fell into this predicted position after the second shot, and is now dead, blood has stopped pumping, but there must be escaped blood inside her body, and gravity must be keeping that escaped blood below anywhere where it can exit. Remember, her head is vertical at this point.

When her murderer pulls the body back from the bedside cabinet, probably by the ankles, the head drops down and becomes horizontal, and that is when the blood spills out. The blood may have spilled out because of the physical movement of the body, or because her mouth and wounds were now in a more favourable position to enable blood to leak out.  And maybe it was a combination of those things that led to the blood leaking out.

The blood running down her cheeks rather than down her chin, proves that she was moved immediately after death, other wise the blood would have dried and congealed inside her body.

Had her dead body (with the head in the vertical position) been moved by the police when they broke in at 07:30, or any time after, there would either be dried blood that had dripped down toward her chin, or no blood at all (if the effect of gravity ensured that the blood remained below any places where it could exit).

And as the blood running down her cheeks was very obviously dry in the photos, Sheila must have died before any of the firearms officers entered the house at approx. 07:30.

Also, some of the firearms officers noted the bullet wounds in her neck.  Had her head been in a vertical position, propped against the bedside cabinet, I would think it would be impossible to see the wounds.

All of that proves that Sheila was murdered, and it proves that she was dead when the firearms officers broke into the house.

It also means that she would have been dead when the police turned up at 03:48, as there were no witnesses to a burglar or assassin leaving the premises after the police turned up.

This may not be how things play out in peoples heads, but what I've described is roughly how things will play out at the CCRC, or a court of law.

As you can see, the truth takes a long time to explain.  Lies and dismissal, ignorance and arrogance, can all be achieved in one small sentence.
Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs