Author Topic: Political interference with parole boards  (Read 688 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17591
Political interference with parole boards
« on: March 30, 2022, 04:39:PM »
I understand this was a shocking case - but what is the the point of parole boards, if politicians can just interfere in order to curry favour with public opinion?

 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/30/baby-p-tracey-connelly-mother-appeal-release-prison-dominic-raab
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 04:40:PM by Roch »

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13795
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2022, 05:25:PM »
I understand this was a shocking case - but what is the the point of parole boards, if politicians can just interfere in order to curry favour with public opinion?

 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/30/baby-p-tracey-connelly-mother-appeal-release-prison-dominic-raab

How is he interfering? Raab is responsible for the Ministry of Justice which the HM Probation Service is part of. Its his job.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2022, 07:01:PM »
The two men involved in this should have been hanged.  Their sentences were grossly insufficient.  The woman they are talking about should not be released until she is elderly.  As for whether Dominic Raab should be interfering, he should not have to.

Calling it 'political interference' frames the question at issue in a certain way.  Political interference in judicial decisions must nearly always be wrong because it implies that the courts and tribunals must have one eye on popularity and the beliefs and whims of elected politicians, who often lack the necessary education and background to make informed decisions about complex matters involving the rights of specific individuals. 

Yet considerations of public confidence should form part of justice, so that elected politicians ideally don't face these pressures to interfere in matters that are beyond their expertise.  I see the maintenance of public confidence as a different thing to 'political interference', though the two things are overlapping.  Ideally, I should like to think that Mr Rabb is intervening (not interfering) in this case not as a 'politician' but as a government minister.  It looks like he has no decision-making role as such, but is pursuing the matter through the Parole Board's reconsideration mechanism, which is similar to judicial review in the courts, asking the Board to determine if a decision must be taken again, and if so, presumably a different review panel will be convened.  I see no issue with that.

I see that in this latest parole review for Connelly, 'professional witnesses' told the panel that she is at low risk of reoffending.  That may be the case, but what she did and was involved in was beyond the pale.  I am appalled Jason Owen was released so early. 

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17591
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2022, 07:24:PM »
How is he interfering? Raab is responsible for the Ministry of Justice which the HM Probation Service is part of. Its his job.

She's been cleared for release by the people best placed to assess whether she should be cleared for release.  If we are going say that somebody should stay in prison because they are reviled among the general public, why bother having a parole board in the first place? 

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2022, 07:33:PM »
I always hope that these monsters don't " reign " long out in the public arena. Wishful thinking.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2022, 07:49:PM »
She's been cleared for release by the people best placed to assess whether she should be cleared for release.  If we are going say that somebody should stay in prison because they are reviled among the general public, why bother having a parole board in the first place?

I agree with that, but the necessary caveat is to consider whether releasing an individual accords with ordinary good sense and decency.  If it doesn't then public confidence will be adversely affected.  You may say that determining what is and isn't good sense is subjective.  It is, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss what it is and come to a broad agreement on what is sensible and what isn't.

I will offer an example, to illustrate the point.

From what I can gather, experts wanted to release Myra Hindley and would have had a mind to.  She was considered low risk (I'm sure that's true, too) and the Parole Board of the time wanted to move her to an establishment where she would be prepared for resettlement.  I'm quite glad this was blocked by both the courts and politicians (including a personal intervention by Margaret Thatcher, who apparently blocked a decision of one of her ministers that could have led to her eventual release).  I'm glad because, although she was low risk, she had never been fully candid about her offending and her release would have been an affront to all good sense and decency.  As an aside, it would also have been a deep insult to the memory and dignity of her victims and their families (though, strictly speaking, that is a more minor consideration, but still important).

In the Hindley case, the criminological, medical and penological experts were wrong - totally and utterly wrong.  Their view was plainly an affront to good sense and decency.  The laymen politicians (as well as the courts) were right.

The reality is that professional 'experts' do sometimes have blind spots.  This is because they are experts.  It seems paradoxical to say it, but expertise can sometimes be a disadvantage in the exercise of good sense because it narrows one's focus and wider considerations are forgotten.  This is why experts will make decisions that seem ridiculous or run contrary to good sense, even though what they are doing may be technically or legally correct.  This problem cannot be cured.  It is just the way of the world.  The purpose of intervention by the government minister is to moderate this inherent defect in the system to ensure and maintain public confidence.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17591
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2022, 09:57:PM »
I agree with that, but the necessary caveat is to consider whether releasing an individual accords with ordinary good sense and decency.  If it doesn't then public confidence will be adversely affected.  You may say that determining what is and isn't good sense is subjective.  It is, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss what it is and come to a broad agreement on what is sensible and what isn't.

I will offer an example, to illustrate the point.

From what I can gather, experts wanted to release Myra Hindley and would have had a mind to.  She was considered low risk (I'm sure that's true, too) and the Parole Board of the time wanted to move her to an establishment where she would be prepared for resettlement.  I'm quite glad this was blocked by both the courts and politicians (including a personal intervention by Margaret Thatcher, who apparently blocked a decision of one of her ministers that could have led to her eventual release).  I'm glad because, although she was low risk, she had never been fully candid about her offending and her release would have been an affront to all good sense and decency.  As an aside, it would also have been a deep insult to the memory and dignity of her victims and their families (though, strictly speaking, that is a more minor consideration, but still important).

In the Hindley case, the criminological, medical and penological experts were wrong - totally and utterly wrong.  Their view was plainly an affront to good sense and decency.  The laymen politicians (as well as the courts) were right.

The reality is that professional 'experts' do sometimes have blind spots.  This is because they are experts.  It seems paradoxical to say it, but expertise can sometimes be a disadvantage in the exercise of good sense because it narrows one's focus and wider considerations are forgotten.  This is why experts will make decisions that seem ridiculous or run contrary to good sense, even though what they are doing may be technically or legally correct.  This problem cannot be cured.  It is just the way of the world.  The purpose of intervention by the government minister is to moderate this inherent defect in the system to ensure and maintain public confidence.

Points understood. However, the example you give - it's going back quite some way.  Do you think Connelly is as 'sophisticated' as Hindley was? I use that term in the context of manipulative behaviour. Playing the authorities and those around her, to minimise her role and emphasize her alleged redemption. I understand Connelly managed to deceive services prior to the tragic death of her child. But I'm not convinced she's wily to the extent Hindley probably was.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2022, 10:24:PM »
Points understood. However, the example you give - it's going back quite some way.  Do you think Connelly is as 'sophisticated' as Hindley was? I use that term in the context of manipulative behaviour. Playing the authorities and those around her, to minimise her role and emphasize her alleged redemption. I understand Connelly managed to deceive services prior to the tragic death of her child. But I'm not convinced she's wily to the extent Hindley probably was.

That's not exactly the point I was making.  I have no doubt that Myra Hindley posed little risk to the community and it would have been perfectly safe to release her.  In that sense, she wasn't deceiving anybody.  You could argue that she wasn't truly remorseful and her conversion to (or resumption of) Roman Catholicism was a cynical front, but that aspect of it is truly subjective and nobody could peer into her mind.  The issue was public confidence: as I see it, specifically the proposal to move her towards release did not comport with good sense and decency (my own phrasing).  Clearly it wouldn't, because she had not revealed the full extent of her crimes or co-operated sufficiently with the police in recovery of her victims' remains.  Given the gravity of the offences, it would clearly be contrary to good sense and decency to release such a person, even if - as in Hindley's case - she was essentially a harmless individual.

The experts were perhaps right to recommend her release within the boundaries of their expertise, but wrong overall because 'academic' and 'clinical' arguments do not necessarily take account of wider factors.  This is why it is dangerous to allow experts to decide anything.  They should be confined to advising on things and imparting their expertise, not deciding things.  Fortunately various people acted to stop it.

Nobody will know if Connelly is being deceitful.  Again, we can't peer into her mind.  On that point, we have to rely on what the experts and others who have observed her and looked after her in custody have to say about her.  That's not necessarily the point at issue.  It is more about public confidence, as outlined above, and also there should be an acknowledgement that remorse and risk are separate things. Myra Hindley may have been a truly cynical woman, but also of low risk.  Conversely, the Connelly woman may be truly remorseful but still represent a risk, either because she is just a bad person or because she has weaknesses in her character.  Given the egregious and grave nature of the offending, I would prefer that she is kept in for much longer, at least until she is well past fertile age so that she cannot have any more children.  You only have to look up the Baby P case and see what happened to understand fully why Dominic Raab may think there is a need to intervene.  Perhaps don't look it up.  It's very disturbing.  Just trust me when I say that it will leave you extremely angry.  On this occasion, I think Mr Raab is right.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17591
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2022, 02:36:PM »
That's not exactly the point I was making.  I have no doubt that Myra Hindley posed little risk to the community and it would have been perfectly safe to release her.  In that sense, she wasn't deceiving anybody.  You could argue that she wasn't truly remorseful and her conversion to (or resumption of) Roman Catholicism was a cynical front, but that aspect of it is truly subjective and nobody could peer into her mind.  The issue was public confidence: as I see it, specifically the proposal to move her towards release did not comport with good sense and decency (my own phrasing).  Clearly it wouldn't, because she had not revealed the full extent of her crimes or co-operated sufficiently with the police in recovery of her victims' remains.  Given the gravity of the offences, it would clearly be contrary to good sense and decency to release such a person, even if - as in Hindley's case - she was essentially a harmless individual.

The experts were perhaps right to recommend her release within the boundaries of their expertise, but wrong overall because 'academic' and 'clinical' arguments do not necessarily take account of wider factors.  This is why it is dangerous to allow experts to decide anything.  They should be confined to advising on things and imparting their expertise, not deciding things.  Fortunately various people acted to stop it.

Nobody will know if Connelly is being deceitful.  Again, we can't peer into her mind.  On that point, we have to rely on what the experts and others who have observed her and looked after her in custody have to say about her.  That's not necessarily the point at issue.  It is more about public confidence, as outlined above, and also there should be an acknowledgement that remorse and risk are separate things. Myra Hindley may have been a truly cynical woman, but also of low risk.  Conversely, the Connelly woman may be truly remorseful but still represent a risk, either because she is just a bad person or because she has weaknesses in her character.  Given the egregious and grave nature of the offending, I would prefer that she is kept in for much longer, at least until she is well past fertile age so that she cannot have any more children.  You only have to look up the Baby P case and see what happened to understand fully why Dominic Raab may think there is a need to intervene.  Perhaps don't look it up.  It's very disturbing.  Just trust me when I say that it will leave you extremely angry.  On this occasion, I think Mr Raab is right.

Yes I am aware of the case. Horrific. As a wider issue - it's just a sad fact that certain people should never have children.  Among such people, there are mothers who repeatedly become pregnant, in spite of their offspring being repeatedly removed by the state, in to alternative / state care. It is not possible for the state to sterilise such people. I'm sure there are reasons for that, relating to human rights etc. But sometimes, I wish some people could be subject to mandatory sterilisation for a certain period of time to prevent them repeatedly producing babies that they are unable to care for / keep safe.

I should add to the above that there are also males who should be subject to this concept!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 02:38:PM by Roch »

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21137
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2022, 09:03:PM »
So many opportunities missed by Haringey Council and a paediatrician. There's a segment on the case here: https://youtu.be/EdhKAAE-aLA

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2022, 10:38:PM »
Who is responsible for the society that we have today ? It's putrid and toxic.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21137
Re: Political interference with parole boards
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2022, 10:41:PM »
Who is responsible for the society that we have today ? It's putrid and toxic.
The breakdown of the family unit plays a large part.