Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.

[snow66!]

He didn't want any contact with blood. He staged the scene in the master bedroom, knowing full well it would be nigh on impossible for anyone to distinguish between Sheila shooting herself with an Anschütz rifle and someone's hand guiding it to achieve the same diabolical outcome.

I am not sure what you mean Steve.If Sheila slept through the massacre,at some point JB had to get hold of her.Did he give her a shout to wake her up,or did he manage to go into the bedroom without leaving any trace of blood and wake her.Did he then instruct Sheila to go through to her parents bedroom without touching her.Did he lead her by the hand,after removing his gloves.And remember she had to be led in past her dead mother.But the police scenario has Sheila wake up and go through to the bedroom while JB is in the kitchen,so getting her there is no problem,and no contamination takes place.So now we are back to Sheila sitting down to be shot without a struggle,luckily for JB she didnt resist or try and escape.So according to the guilters Sheila either slept through the massacre and JB managed to get her out of bed and through to the master bedroom without leaving a trace of blood or other evidence in Sheilas room.Or Sheila woke up and went through to her parents bedroom of her own accord,ignored her injured mother and headed for the box room to get through to the twins.But before she got to the box room JB returned and shot his mother three times infront of her.Instead of bolting through the box room door at this horrific sight,Sheila simply froze.JB goes over to sheila and forces her down.Now at this stage you have got to ask yourself about the state of JB.He as shot both parents at close range,he has struggled with Nevill in the kitchen who had a wound to his arm would have been spitting ou blood from his mouth,his head was smashed and opened wide.Blood from Nevills battering and his gun shot wounds must have sprayed on to his assailant.JB hadalready shot the twins and June.When he went back up stairs he again shot June.But we are told Sheila was more or less spotless,so a severely bloodied JB must have managed to force or persuade,shall we say,Sheila to sit down and be shot.Then he arranged the scene,without leaving any blood stains or spots of blood off of his clothes on Sheila.No bloodied footprints or stains of any kind round about Sheila,or on her person.So one of these scenarios or something similar must be true if JB was the killer.Either way,we have to believe a bloodied JB managed to kill Sheila without any struggle,else she would have had blood stains all over her person from contact with JBs bloodied clothes,fighting for her life.So,are you happy with something like this for a scenario Steve,or what is your version like?

[snow66!]

Anyway,dont you think its a big ask for anyone to believe that JB was so confident,that he could simply shoot everyone else and count on Sheila to more or less sit down and agree to be shot,Give up her life without question.Was he that good at reading Sheilas mind,so confident she wouldnt try and fight or run away.Was he better at diagnosing his sister than a psychologist.Did he know simply by looking at her that evening,that she was in no state to put up any resistance.Did he have knowledge of the drugs she was taking and their effect.Did he really think anyone would sleep through a gruesome massacre.After all,it wasnt a burglary,where he would sneak in and out again as quietly as possibe.It was a SHOOTING with GUNS.Not the quietest situation to sleep through,although we are told the rifle was more or less silent by the guilters.He had to contain five humans and a yapping dog in a large house,no one could be allowed to flee the house or phone for help.And on top of all that,one of the intended victims had to PLAY THE GAME as it were,and wait her turn.But luckily for JB she woke up on on cue and entered her parents bedroom moments before JB came back up from the kitchen,ready to be shot.And you wonder why some people have reasonable doubt.

[Jane]

Anyway,dont you think its a big ask for anyone to believe that JB was so confident,that he could simply shoot everyone else and count on Sheila to more or less sit down and agree to be shot,Give up her life without question.Was he that good at reading Sheilas mind,so confident she wouldnt try and fight or run away.Was he better at diagnosing his sister than a psychologist.Did he know simply by looking at her that evening,that she was in no state to put up any resistance.Did he have knowledge of the drugs she was taking and their effect.Did he really think anyone would sleep through a gruesome massacre.After all,it wasnt a burglary,where he would sneak in and out again as quietly as possibe.It was a SHOOTING with GUNS.Not the quietest situation to sleep through,although we are told the rifle was more or less silent by the guilters.He had to contain five humans and a yapping dog in a large house,no one could be allowed to flee the house or phone for help.And on top of all that,one of the intended victims had to PLAY THE GAME as it were,and wait her turn.But luckily for JB she woke up on on cue and entered her parents bedroom moments before JB came back up from the kitchen,ready to be shot.And you wonder why some people have reasonable doubt.

None of it was the problem it might have been had it happened in an urban area. No one to witness him getting in and out, extension phones disabled, no one left alive to testify. You say JB wasn't capable because......and go on to list reasons why, but you're putting your own hesitancies and disinclinations onto him. Without the same drive to achieve now, what he'd otherwise have to wait several more decades to get a share of, and a sense of entitlement, the majority of us would have chosen to stay in bed rather than risk life imprisonment.

I absolutely believe he was that confident. Listening, last night, to how a character called Haigh, well educated, well dressed, well spoken, after finding a failsafe way of making bodies disappear, successfully murdered 9 people for the sole reason of getting his hands on their money, before being caught, I wondered about JB's pre-plan, because his arrogance perfectly matched Haigh's.

I'm not suggesting his task was easy -the enormous gains would have compensated- but I think you're attaching your own 'stuff' to it, rather than trying to see it through the eyes of a person who must have been 100% certain they could get away with it without suspicion falling on them. Ask ANY convicted felon! I'll bet none of them believed they'd get caught. Were that the case, no crimes would ever be committed.

[snow66!]

None of it was the problem it might have been had it happened in an urban area. No one to witness him getting in and out, extension phones disabled, no one left alive to testify. You say JB wasn't capable because......and go on to list reasons why, but you're putting your own hesitancies and disinclinations onto him. Without the same drive to achieve now, what he'd otherwise have to wait several more decades to get a share of, and a sense of entitlement, the majority of us would have chosen to stay in bed rather than risk life imprisonment.

I absolutely believe he was that confident. Listening, last night, to how a character called Haigh, well educated, well dressed, well spoken, after finding a failsafe way of making bodies disappear, successfully murdered 9 people for the sole reason of getting his hands on their money, before being caught, I wondered about JB's pre-plan, because his arrogance perfectly matched Haigh's.

I'm not suggesting his task was easy -the enormous gains would have compensated- but I think you're attaching your own 'stuff' to it, rather than trying to see it through the eyes of a person who must have been 100% certain they could get away with it without suspicion falling on them. Ask ANY convicted felon! I'll bet none of them believed they'd get caught. Were that the case, no crimes would ever be committed.

Hi Jane,nice day again here,hope its the same where you are.Thinking about it,i would say yes,IF JB is guilty,John George Haigh of whom i presume you are reffering to,would have been a very similar villain.Liked the high life and acted the perfect gentleman,yet could bash people over the head and drop them into a barrel of acid.I remember the TV show very well with Martin Clunes.So yes,a very good comparison IF jb is guilty.But Haigh never attempted a mass murder,only one unsuspecting victim at a time.All that i am trying to say,in my own clumsy way is that no matter how confident JB was,he wasnt stupid enough to think it would be a walk in the park,especialy having to kill the victims in a certain order,and possibly count on Sheila to comply with her own demise.I think you said a few days ago,JB may have threatened to blame Sheila if she did not agree to be shot,but do you really believe that after knowing what JB had done,she would simply say--Oh well Jeremy ,enjoy the money and have a long and happy life.I will sit down and let you take aim now,good luck and cheerio!-------Is this something like you have in mind Jane.Anyway,very good comparison with Haighs mindset.

[Jane]

Hi Jane,nice day again here,hope its the same where you are.Thinking about it,i would say yes,IF JB is guilty,John George Haigh of whom i presume you are reffering to,would have been a very similar villain.Liked the high life and acted the perfect gentleman,yet could bash people over the head and drop them into a barrel of acid.I remember the TV show very well with Martin Clunes.So yes,a very good comparison IF jb is guilty.But Haigh never attempted a mass murder,only one unsuspecting victim at a time.All that i am trying to say,in my own clumsy way is that no matter how confident JB was,he wasnt stupid enough to think it would be a walk in the park,especialy having to kill the victims in a certain order,and possibly count on Sheila to comply with her own demise.I think you said a few days ago,JB may have threatened to blame Sheila if she did not agree to be shot,but do you really believe that after knowing what JB had done,she would simply say--Oh well Jeremy ,enjoy the money and have a long and happy life.I will sit down and let you take aim now,good luck and cheerio!-------Is this something like you have in mind Jane.Anyway,very good comparison with Haighs mindset.

No! I absolutely DON'T believe Sheila would have made light of it -and I think it's disrespectful of you to suggest she might- I believe she'd have been terrified and I don't try to undermine it. NOR am I going to suggest that JB went in like a wimp and asked their permission to kill them. Whatever happened in there, once he'd started, it had to be finished. I can't say, definitively, that once he started he became so hyped up with adrenalin and his own success that it became easier, OR that the adrenalin started to wear off and it became harder............but although we can't actually ask Haigh, we can look at what he did.

[snow66!]

Reasons:

Bamber was physically a lot stronger.

Bamber was determined & confident.

Bamber was prepared & had a plan.

Sheila was unprepared.

Bamber had a rifle.

Sheila would trust Bamber.

Bamber was fully clothed.

Very unlikely Sheila woke so would not be aware what was happening.

If Sheila did wake, no guarantee she would get up.

If Sheila woke & got up,  she would think it was a burglar & be compliant.

If Sheila got up, she may freeze.

Bamber had to get Sheila to move a few feet. Either through persuasion, cohersion. Or both. He could then take her to ground.

Bamber knew where he wanted to shoot Sheila. So knew what he had to do with her.

Bamber was hyped after his kitchen fight. Sheila was not going to stop him now.

Hi Adam.You make it sound oh so easy.You must have a very confident mindset similar to your nemesis.

[snow66!]

No! I absolutely DON'T believe Sheila would have made light of it -and I think it's disrespectful of you to suggest she might- I believe she'd have been terrified and I don't try to undermine it. NOR am I going to suggest that JB went in like a wimp and asked their permission to kill them. Whatever happened in there, once he'd started, it had to be finished. I can't say, definitively, that once he started he became so hyped up with adrenalin and his own success that it became easier, OR that the adrenalin started to wear off and it became harder............but although we can't actually ask Haigh, we can look at what he did.

Hi Jane.Sorry if you take my tongue in cheek comments as offensive.I think you know i have no intention of being disrespectful to anyone living or dead,and if i do,i will appologise right away without question.So if i have caused you any distress with my comments about Sheila ,i am sorry.But the thing is Jane,i try and give a complete step by step scenario of situations,and take them to a conclusion,no matter how uncumfortable that may be.If i may say so,the likes of Adam and yourself only give a vague outline of the events and avoid any real detail.Infact many members play it safe and dont give scenarios at all,giving little detail of why they think JB is guilty or not.At least i try and explain fully the reasons why i have doubt,and if this causes offence at times i am truly sorry.But remember Jane,it is a murder case we are discussing and as such is likely to cause some friction between members.

[Adam]

Hi Adam.You make it sound oh so easy.You must have a very confident mindset similar to your nemesis.

Well they were all facts.

Bamber only had a short window of opportunity. The rewards were huge.

So Sheila being fully fit or docile/uncordinated was  going to make no difference to him.

[Steve_uk]

I am not sure what you mean Steve.If Sheila slept through the massacre,at some point JB had to get hold of her.Did he give her a shout to wake her up,or did he manage to go into the bedroom without leaving any trace of blood and wake her.Did he then instruct Sheila to go through to her parents bedroom without touching her.Did he lead her by the hand,after removing his gloves.And remember she had to be led in past her dead mother.But the police scenario has Sheila wake up and go through to the bedroom while JB is in the kitchen,so getting her there is no problem,and no contamination takes place.So now we are back to Sheila sitting down to be shot without a struggle,luckily for JB she didnt resist or try and escape.So according to the guilters Sheila either slept through the massacre and JB managed to get her out of bed and through to the master bedroom without leaving a trace of blood or other evidence in Sheilas room.Or Sheila woke up and went through to her parents bedroom of her own accord,ignored her injured mother and headed for the box room to get through to the twins.But before she got to the box room JB returned and shot his mother three times infront of her.Instead of bolting through the box room door at this horrific sight,Sheila simply froze.JB goes over to sheila and forces her down.Now at this stage you have got to ask yourself about the state of JB.He as shot both parents at close range,he has struggled with Nevill in the kitchen who had a wound to his arm would have been spitting ou blood from his mouth,his head was smashed and opened wide.Blood from Nevills battering and his gun shot wounds must have sprayed on to his assailant.JB hadalready shot the twins and June.When he went back up stairs he again shot June.But we are told Sheila was more or less spotless,so a severely bloodied JB must have managed to force or persuade,shall we say,Sheila to sit down and be shot.Then he arranged the scene,without leaving any blood stains or spots of blood off of his clothes on Sheila.No bloodied footprints or stains of any kind round about Sheila,or on her person.So one of these scenarios or something similar must be true if JB was the killer.Either way,we have to believe a bloodied JB managed to kill Sheila without any struggle,else she would have had blood stains all over her person from contact with JBs bloodied clothes,fighting for her life.So,are you happy with something like this for a scenario Steve,or what is your version like?

I wouldn't use the word "happy" snow, but I'm confident that Jeremy Bamber realized that Sheila was a sitting duck and that his scenario would work. He would have sussed the situation from the Sunday and Monday nights and known the bathtime of Nicholas and Daniel, following which they were put to bed, he would know that during harvest Nevill would work late and consequently be tired, and he would have paid attention to Sheila's routine, her physical and mental state. He was the one who broached the subject of her being an unfit mother round the supper table, desiring to orchestrate a row, as he usually did prefer the state of souring relations rather than the peacekeeping role. He could not have foreseen the late call from Auntie Pamela, which confirms Sheila's drowsy state. All he had to do was to lead an unsuspecting Sheila with the element of surprise to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, all to be over in a matter of seconds. He then telephoned his answerphone from the Farm and hurried back to Bourtree Cottage to clean up and create the alibi.

[Adam]

I wouldn't use the word "happy" snow, but I'm confident that Jeremy Bamber realized that Sheila was a sitting duck and that his scenario would work. He would have sussed the situation from the Sunday and Monday nights and known the bathtime of Nicholas and Daniel, following which they were put to bed, he would know that during harvest Nevill would work late and consequently be tired, and he would have paid attention to Sheila's routine, her physical and mental state. He was the one who broached the subject of her being an unfit mother round the supper table, desiring to orchestrate a row, as he usually did prefer the state of souring relations rather than the peacekeeping role. He could not have foreseen the late call from Auntie Pamela, which confirms Sheila's drowsy state. All he had to do was to lead an unsuspecting Sheila with the element of surprise to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, all to be over in a matter of seconds. He then telephoned his answerphone from the Farm and hurried back to Bourtree Cottage to clean up and create the alibi.

Sitting duck is a good explanation.

Creating a few line gaps would make this more reader friendly.

[snow66!]

I wouldn't use the word "happy" snow, but I'm confident that Jeremy Bamber realized that Sheila was a sitting duck and that his scenario would work. He would have sussed the situation from the Sunday and Monday nights and known the bathtime of Nicholas and Daniel, following which they were put to bed, he would know that during harvest Nevill would work late and consequently be tired, and he would have paid attention to Sheila's routine, her physical and mental state. He was the one who broached the subject of her being an unfit mother round the supper table, desiring to orchestrate a row, as he usually did prefer the state of souring relations rather than the peacekeeping role. He could not have foreseen the late call from Auntie Pamela, which confirms Sheila's drowsy state. All he had to do was to lead an unsuspecting Sheila with the element of surprise to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, all to be over in a matter of seconds. He then telephoned his answerphone from the Farm and hurried back to Bourtree Cottage to clean up and create the alibi.

I am sorry Steve,but i require far more detail.You say lead an unsuspecting Sheila,but start at the beginning.He has to open the bedroom door first and presumably wake her up.Explain what he said to make her go with him to her parents room.You say lead an unsuspecting Sheila with the element of surprise.Unsuspecting only till she saw her mother surely.Element of surprise,what does that mean Steve? Does that mean JB left the rifle at the far side of the bed,then went to get Sheila from her room,lead her over,tell her to sit down,then sneak the rifle up and shoot her before she was aware of what was happening? And to still have the element of surprise at this stage,we have to conclude JB shielded her eyes from her blood soaked mother on entering the room,or was she so drowsy her eyes were shut? And what reason did he give to Sheila for taking her through to her parents room and sitting down on the floor.No matter what you say Steve,there had to be some sort of conversation between JB and Sheila,she didnt get up out of bed from a deep sleep in the middle of the night without asking the purpose.And wouldnt she be surprised JB was in the house,when she knew he had gone home earlier.What did he tell her? I need all these sort of details before i can start to take what you and Adam say about the death of Sheila seriously Steve.

[Adam]

Bamber just had to maneuver Sheila across the corridor to the opposite bedroom. With everyone else dead, he could take his time.

He would attempt this by friendly persuasion. But had the option of coercion if that was not succeeding.

[Steve_uk]

I am sorry Steve,but i require far more detail.You say lead an unsuspecting Sheila,but start at the beginning.He has to open the bedroom door first and presumably wake her up.Explain what he said to make her go with him to her parents room.You say lead an unsuspecting Sheila with the element of surprise.Unsuspecting only till she saw her mother surely.Element of surprise,what does that mean Steve? Does that mean JB left the rifle at the far side of the bed,then went to get Sheila from her room,lead her over,tell her to sit down,then sneak the rifle up and shoot her before she was aware of what was happening? And to still have the element of surprise at this stage,we have to conclude JB shielded her eyes from her blood soaked mother on entering the room,or was she so drowsy her eyes were shut? And what reason did he give to Sheila for taking her through to her parents room and sitting down on the floor.No matter what you say Steve,there had to be some sort of conversation between JB and Sheila,she didnt get up out of bed from a deep sleep in the middle of the night without asking the purpose.And wouldnt she be surprised JB was in the house,when she knew he had gone home earlier.What did he tell her? I need all these sort of details before i can start to take what you and Adam say about the death of Sheila seriously Steve.

Sheila was oblivious at the best of times as to people's reactions to her, symptoms of the schizophrenia which may have manifested itself during the modelling assignment in Japan. Jeremy knew of her unawareness of surroundings as he entered her room that August morning, woke her as she had done to him at Christmastide all those years before, leading her by the arm on the pretext that June had some Bible pretext to require her presence. The dead body was a plus, not a minus, as no resistance would be forthcoming from that quarter, though speed was of the essence, hence the accuracy mistake with the first shot.

[Adam]

Sheila was oblivious at the best of times as to people's reactions to her, symptoms of the schizophrenia which may have manifested itself during the modelling assignment in Japan. Jeremy knew of her unawareness of surroundings as he entered her room that August morning, woke her as she had done to him at Christmastide all those years before, leading her by the arm on the pretext that June had some Bible pretext to require her presence. The dead body was a plus, not a minus, as no resistance would be forthcoming from that quarter, though speed was of the essence, hence the accuracy mistake with the first shot.

Do you think Bamber would have left the main bedroom light off when leading Sheila there?

Would have meant Sheila did not see June. However make his shot into Sheila more difficult.

[guest29835]

I wouldn't use the word "happy" snow, but I'm confident that Jeremy Bamber realized that Sheila was a sitting duck and that his scenario would work. He would have sussed the situation from the Sunday and Monday nights and known the bathtime of Nicholas and Daniel, following which they were put to bed, he would know that during harvest Nevill would work late and consequently be tired, and he would have paid attention to Sheila's routine, her physical and mental state. He was the one who broached the subject of her being an unfit mother round the supper table, desiring to orchestrate a row, as he usually did prefer the state of souring relations rather than the peacekeeping role. He could not have foreseen the late call from Auntie Pamela, which confirms Sheila's drowsy state. All he had to do was to lead an unsuspecting Sheila with the element of surprise to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, all to be over in a matter of seconds. He then telephoned his answerphone from the Farm and hurried back to Bourtree Cottage to clean up and create the alibi.

Again, I would like to ask: Where does Pamela Boutflour confirm that Sheila was in a drowsy state, or as you have also said, like a 'zombie'?  I have read seven statements from Pamela Boutflour and none of them mention this.  Have I missed it?

I think Snow is more on the right lines about Sheila.  The statement from Dr. Iliffe about seeing Sheila at the apartment in March 1985 suggests a consistent pattern of demeanour and behaviour, as her manner on that occasion was not dissimilar to that reported around the time of the tragedy.  In March, she was not yet medicated but was drinking and taking illicit drugs.  We know from the toxicology report that this continued.  I think the antipsychotics made Sheila worse, not better.