Author Topic: Sheilas Two Shots  (Read 28860 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #180 on: March 13, 2022, 10:56:PM »
Sheila was on Haloperidol & in a non responsive state. 

As confirmed by the last two alive witnesses to see/hear her alive - Bamber & the house keeper.

She was so sedated, that she fooled the firearm officers that she was dead, downstairs in the kitchen, where they left her body along with 'Neville Bambers', body!

Unfortunately, for 'those of you who obviously can't see the wood for the trees', the raid team cops, exited the kitchen to search the rest of the farmhouse for the other family members, of which there were another three! Cops checked every room downstairs after confirming that there were two bodies in the kitchen. Now, if 'Sheila' was so 'zonked out of her mind', funnily enough then how did she end thereafter in the main bedroom upstairs, and lay alongside her adopted mother ('June Bamber') on the top of the bed! In order for this to have happened, 'Sheila' must have obviously been 'compusmentus'! Allow me, to educate you, regarding how alert she was, after cops assumed that 'she had died', and was 'deaded' there in the kitchen!

A key element to establishing as close as possible, let me try to focus your attention on the doorway in the kitchen, behind which was an escape route consisting of a spiral staircase, which linked the kitchen downstairs to the landing upstairs,  the upstairs doorway would have, and did eventually provide access to that upstairs landing, and of course, the main bedroom where she subsequently laid upon the bed, alongside her adoptive mother! How astounding, that in the crime scene photographs taken of the staged managed kitchen set up, that the latched doorway and the spiral staircase that afforded access up and down between the kitchen and the upstairs landing, that none of the 6 man raid team, mention anything about that latched doorway or the spiral stairway beyond? Nobody checked what was beyond that latched doorway in a corner of the kitchen downstairs! Instead, the cops searched all the other rooms of the farmhouse on ground level. One officer, went up the back stairs in an attempt to communicate 'Sheika', by calling out her name [Sheila Bamber] as he cautiously mounted each step of the back stairway!

The original 6 man raid team, did not search or look inside cupboard doors, or the doorway to the so, - called gun cupboard in the downstairs office ('den')! Neither did they look behind or beyond the latched door in one corner of the kitchen (at the time a man and a woman's body was confirmed as being present in the kitchen upon entry!

It was not until the raid team discovered the other three victims bodies upstairs [8.10am] when the firearm officers operation had been completed, and the entrance of senior officers into the farmhouse Via the same route taken by the firearm officers at the time of their initial entry into the farmhouse, when upon entering the kitchen those senior officers raised the alert that there was only one body present in the kitchen, and that was the body of a male victim! The female, had gone missing!!!

At that time, it is understood that 'Sheila' had concealed herself behind the latched door and rested somewhere upon the spiral staircase, until the opportunity arose for her to exit the door above (top landing) and she slipped into the main bedroom, and collapsed onto the bed, next to 'June Bamber'..

'June' had possession of a rifle, at this stage which she had rested next to her on top of the bed, there was also two bibles on the bed at the same time. When 'Sheila' arrived on the bed, she picked up one of the bibles, and before she lost consciousness, she searched for religeous scripture within the pages of one of the two bibles, and faded into unconsciousness, with the bible fallen and resting upon her chest!

She was not relocated, on the bed of her adoptive parents bed until 8.30am..
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 11:04:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #181 on: March 13, 2022, 11:09:PM »
Hi Gascoine,hope your well today.Well,i have looked at Carol Ann Lees book again,and you and Cutie are correct in thinking the phrase -Sheila froze-on page 415 comes from the official police scenario sent to the DPP to bring JB to trial.It also says Sheila walked through to the bedroom of her own accord while JB was in the kitchen with nevill.I have been looking through the 2002 appeal,but cant find Martyn Ismails evidence,can you tell me what number in the report his analysis starts Gascoigne?

If you would care to go to the link below, and then look at paragraphs 514-520, you will see Mr Ismail's evidence discussed.  Mr Ismail also gave an opinion on the blood evidence, and his work in that regard is discussed briefly at 498(v).

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html

For future reference, most browsers allow you to carry out a word search of webpages.  If you search for 'Ismail', you will find he is mentioned 10 times.

It is best to read the judgment all the way through, though, rather than selectively.

guest29835

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #182 on: March 13, 2022, 11:14:PM »
I don't believe Sheila froze. She was just easy to control.

Physically weak & uncordinated, half asleep, not knowing what was going on and under the influence of the sedative effects of Haloperidol.

The last two people to see/hear her alive - Bamber/housekeeper both commented on how docile she was. After observing Sheila, Bamber rang Julie to tell her 'tonights the night'.

The evidence shows Sheila put up no/minimal resistance. Which allowed Bamber's first shot to be a fatal one. Although not instantaneous.

The housekeeper commented that Sheila seemed normal.

Pamela did not see Sheila, she only spoke to her on the phone, and merely commented that she seemed quiet.

Haloperidol can have sedative side-effects, but there is no evidence that Sheila was sedated.  In any case, being sedated does not in itself preclude her involvement in a massacre.  It is not the same as being asleep and could mean anything from feeling drowsy and numb through to actual sleep.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #183 on: March 13, 2022, 11:16:PM »
She was so sedated, that she fooled the firearm officers that she was dead, downstairs in the kitchen, where they left her body along with 'Neville Bambers', body!

She was not relocated, on the bed of her adoptive parents bed until 8.30am..

Hence, why DCS Harris  was re quested to contact 'ACC PETER SIMPSON' using a land-line [8.15am] rather than by radio, and why at 8.09am the open 999 phone line was requested to be terminated!!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 11:17:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #184 on: March 13, 2022, 11:22:PM »
Why is there no recordings or transcripts with regards to the conversation which 'Harris' and 'Simpson' had between 8.15am and 8.30am?

Surely, such information and evidence will be 'the death of all these' / 'those crooked police officers' in this case!!!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #185 on: March 14, 2022, 10:30:AM »
The housekeeper commented that Sheila seemed normal.

Pamela did not see Sheila, she only spoke to her on the phone, and merely commented that she seemed quiet.

Haloperidol can have sedative side-effects, but there is no evidence that Sheila was sedated.  In any case, being sedated does not in itself preclude her involvement in a massacre.  It is not the same as being asleep and could mean anything from feeling drowsy and numb through to actual sleep.

Sorry it was Pamela Boutflour who spoke to Sheila on the phone. Saying Sheila just gave one word answers before June took the phone back.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #186 on: March 14, 2022, 10:35:AM »
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8254.msg391666.html#msg391666

Here is a thread on Haloperiodal.

Obviously Sheila would have been easy to move a few feet into the main bedroom. Otherwise Bamber would not have carried out the massacre a few hours after checking on her.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #187 on: March 14, 2022, 12:18:PM »
If you would care to go to the link below, and then look at paragraphs 514-520, you will see Mr Ismail's evidence discussed.  Mr Ismail also gave an opinion on the blood evidence, and his work in that regard is discussed briefly at 498(v).

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html

For future reference, most browsers allow you to carry out a word search of webpages.  If you search for 'Ismail', you will find he is mentioned 10 times.

It is best to read the judgment all the way through, though, rather than selectively.
Thanks Gascoigne,i will read Ismails evidence and get back to you.I have read quite a bit of the appeal now,but will read it again thoroughly.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #188 on: March 14, 2022, 08:17:PM »
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8254.msg391666.html#msg391666

Here is a thread on Haloperiodal.

Obviously Sheila would have been easy to move a few feet into the main bedroom. Otherwise Bamber would not have carried out the massacre a few hours after checking on her.
Hi Adam hope you are well tonight.You have a great belief that Sheila was in a trance like state onthe night of the murders,and this caused JB to put his plan in to action.Let me give you my opinion of this,and the drug Haloperidol.Most of the side effects you mention are the serious ones,and if Sheila suffered from any of these,she would have been taken off Haloperidol or given another medicine to counteract them.You mention Tardive Dyskinesia,an involuntary movement of the limbs,this is a rare side effect and mostly happens in the elderly.Drowsiness is also a less common side effect,but you have Sheila more or less acting like a zombie,with little will of her own.To say she was dazed and confused is nonsense,confusion is a VERY serious side effect,and would have come to light as soon as she was prescribed the drug.Serious side effects are rare in the population,and must be reported straight away,i have no doubt this would have happened in Sheilas case if anything untoward happened.So Adam,i for one am far from convinced by your argument that Sheila was more or less in a trance.There is no reason to think Sheila was anything less that compos mentis,albeit with underlying schizophrenic thoughts.So to think anyone could man handle or manipulate her is nonsense as far as i can see.As i have said,if she was obviously off balance or dizzy,or throwing her arms or legs about,this would have been noticed at an early stage after the Haloperidol was prescribed.Sheila wuold have needed to be chaperoned constanty to climb stairs and generaly get about.There is no evidence of this,there are even reports of her being out on her own in the days leading up to the massacre.You wouldnt let a staggering,confused zombie out of your sight,would you? There is however a report of Sheila shouting obscenities at a work man who approached the white House,was this her illness rearing its head again with the REDUCTION of the Haloperidol? Almost all medicines have serious side effects,but they rarely happen,if so,this is discovered at an early stage,and the medicine is withdrawn.To think that Sheila was left in a drowsy,sedated,confused,unresponsive mess is nonsense.No,i think Sheila knew exactly what happened that night,and in her restless state would have been involved from the outset.,either as the culprit,or fighting to save the others.One of the common non serious side effects of Haloperidol is aggitation and insomnia,she would have been the FIRST to be aware something was wrong that night,NOT the last.

Offline Jane

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #189 on: March 14, 2022, 08:48:PM »
Hi Adam hope you are well tonight.You have a great belief that Sheila was in a trance like state onthe night of the murders,and this caused JB to put his plan in to action.Let me give you my opinion of this,and the drug Haloperidol.Most of the side effects you mention are the serious ones,and if Sheila suffered from any of these,she would have been taken off Haloperidol or given another medicine to counteract them.You mention Tardive Dyskinesia,an involuntary movement of the limbs,this is a rare side effect and mostly happens in the elderly.Drowsiness is also a less common side effect,but you have Sheila more or less acting like a zombie,with little will of her own.To say she was dazed and confused is nonsense,confusion is a VERY serious side effect,and would have come to light as soon as she was prescribed the drug.Serious side effects are rare in the population,and must be reported straight away,i have no doubt this would have happened in Sheilas case if anything untoward happened.So Adam,i for one am far from convinced by your argument that Sheila was more or less in a trance.There is no reason to think Sheila was anything less that compos mentis,albeit with underlying schizophrenic thoughts.So to think anyone could man handle or manipulate her is nonsense as far as i can see.As i have said,if she was obviously off balance or dizzy,or throwing her arms or legs about,this would have been noticed at an early stage after the Haloperidol was prescribed.Sheila wuold have needed to be chaperoned constanty to climb stairs and generaly get about.There is no evidence of this,there are even reports of her being out on her own in the days leading up to the massacre.You wouldnt let a staggering,confused zombie out of your sight,would you? There is however a report of Sheila shouting obscenities at a work man who approached the white House,was this her illness rearing its head again with the REDUCTION of the Haloperidol? Almost all medicines have serious side effects,but they rarely happen,if so,this is discovered at an early stage,and the medicine is withdrawn.To think that Sheila was left in a drowsy,sedated,confused,unresponsive mess is nonsense.No,i think Sheila knew exactly what happened that night,and in her restless state would have been involved from the outset.,either as the culprit,or fighting to save the others.One of the common non serious side effects of Haloperidol is aggitation and insomnia,she would have been the FIRST to be aware something was wrong that night,NOT the last.


I wonder why it is that you appear dismissive of what Sheila's friends said of her behaviours and appearance in the fortnight prior to her death, but seem prepared to accept an uncorroborated report of her "shouting obscenities at a workman". You are also ignoring that Sheila, because it seems she'd been overmedicated when she left hospital, had visited her doctor and asked for it to be reduced.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #190 on: March 14, 2022, 08:52:PM »
Another option Bamber had with Sheila was to wake her & use friendly persuasion to get her to stand up. Then lift her off her feet & carry her the few feet to her final resting place.

Sheila would be half asleep, on Haloperidol & not know everyone else had been killed. She would also trust her brother.

She would not have time to react to being lifted as taken by surprise.

Although Bamber may have attempted friendly persuasion to direct Sheila into the main bedroom. Again relying on Sheila trusting her brother. 

« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 08:55:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #191 on: March 14, 2022, 08:54:PM »

I wonder why it is that you appear dismissive of what Sheila's friends said of her behaviours and appearance in the fortnight prior to her death, but seem prepared to accept an uncorroborated report of her "shouting obscenities at a workman". You are also ignoring that Sheila, because it seems she'd been overmedicated when she left hospital, had visited her doctor and asked for it to be reduced.
But thats it Jane,if her medication was reduced to the proper dose,WHY was she in the state Adam talks about,the state that prompted JB to put his plan into action that night.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #192 on: March 14, 2022, 08:58:PM »
Another option Bamber had with Sheila was to wake her & use friendly persuasion to get her to stand up. Then lift her off her feet & carry her the few feet to her final resting place.

Sheila would be half asleep, on Haloperidol & not know everyone else had been killed. She would also trust her brother.

She would not have time to react to being lifted.

Although Bamber may have attempted friendly persuasion to direct Sheila into the main bedroom. Again relying on Sheila trusting her brother.
No,no,no,Adam ,i am not buying that,there is no way she slept through the massacre.She would still have been suffering from restlessness and insomnia.She would have been first on the scene.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #193 on: March 14, 2022, 09:00:PM »
No,no,no,Adam ,i am not buying that,there is no way she slept through the massacre.She would still have been suffering from restlessness and insomnia.She would have been first on the scene.

Bamber used a silencer.

Sheila was asleep & under sedation. Behind closed doors and thick walls.

What will wake her?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #194 on: March 14, 2022, 09:04:PM »
There is a very slim chance Sheila woke from the downstairs kitchen fight. But that was over quickly & a long way from Sheila.

If she did wake & decide to go into the main bedroom, Bamber had to deal with her upon his return upstairs. Which would not be difficult for him.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 09:04:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.