Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.

[guest29835]

Adam,

First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence.  Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence.  There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom.  Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way.  The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on.  It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.

Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.

I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.

I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves.  No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.

[Adam]

Adam,

First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence.  Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence.  There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom.  The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on.  It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.

Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's conviction is not based on a specific scenario.

I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.

I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves.  No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.

You keep saying the same thing. I keep giving you the same answer.

I have invited an alternative scenario for Nevill's first 4 shots.

Remember the evidence shows they were in the bedroom.

[Adam]

Adam,

First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence.  Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence.  There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom.  Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way.  The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on.  It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.

Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.

I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.

I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves.  No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.

Nevill got past him. As the evidence shows.

Nevill was 6.4 & 15 stone.

[Adam]

Adam,

First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence.  Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence.  There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom.  Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way.  The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on.  It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.

Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.

I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.

I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves.  No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.

Everyone has to go by the crime scene evidence.

[Adam]

Adam,

First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence.  Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence.  There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom.  Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way.  The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on.  It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.

Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.

I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.

I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves.  No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.

Why would the police move June's body?

[Adam]

Adam,

First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence.  Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence.  There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom.  Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way.  The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on.  It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.

Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.

I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.

I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves.  No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.

I did this week.

After realising Nevill could have been shot in the face just outside of his bed.

Bamber's arms, the rifle & silencer added up to several feet in lenght. Easily covering the bed width. 

[lookout]

June's body WAS moved !

[ILB]

Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.

Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.

Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.

Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.

June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.

Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.

Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.

Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.

Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.

Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.

Where do we get 2AM from

[ILB]

How do we know that Nevill was for definite in bed???

Why would Bamber shoot at his mother first?

Surely the biggest threat was Nevill

We have two scenarios described from two point of views

The boutflours " Nevill was a deep sleeper"

Or from Bamber himself " he has only got to get a whiff of a fox in the garden and he is wide awake"

The difference is Jeremy grew up with his dad. And slept in the same premises. Boutflour didn't

Appreciate we are just trying to piece things together

[guest29835]

The ballistics and pathological evidence make it crystal clear that Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed with her head on the pillow x 2 shots both of which entered and exited.   As she lifted herself out of bed she sustained 4 further gunshot wounds: 1x non-penetrating; 3 x entered and 1 exited.

Having sustained the 6 body shots, bloodstains to the carpet show she lifted herself out of bed and moved from her side of the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back to the door which leads to the hall.  She then sustained 2 further gunshot wounds to the head which rendered her incapable of voluntary movement thereafter.

I have explained numerous times that exit wounds produce far more blood than entry wounds:

Exit wounds, in comparison, are larger and more irregular. They show outward beveling of the soft tissue and the margin. Entry wounds will be free of characteristics, including flame burns and singeing, soiling and redding from gas, as well as tattooing from unburnt particles and metal scraps. They do not have an abrasion rim or grease collar, except when the skin is shored against a hard surface.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556119/

No, it doesn't.  The evidence is open to interpretation.

I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around.  No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand.  It is possible.  But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.

In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all.  I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.

You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links.  I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you.  I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel.  It seems that neither does Adam.  If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice.  Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.

[Adam]

No, it doesn't.  The evidence is open to interpretation.

I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around.  No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand.  It is possible.  But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.

In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all.  I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.

You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links.  I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you.  I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel.  It seems that neither does Adam.  If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice.  Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.

Likely June was in bed, asleep at 2am. As would be the case virtually every night.

[Adam]

No, it doesn't.  The evidence is open to interpretation.

I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around.  No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand.  It is possible.  But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.

In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all.  I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.

You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links.  I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you.  I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel.  It seems that neither does Adam.  If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice.  Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.

The evidence shows June was shot 5 times in bed.

Nevill was shot twice in the face while getting out or just out of bed.

Everyone has to accept the evidence. Even the CT have not disputed it.

[Adam]

How do we know that Nevill was for definite in bed???

Why would Bamber shoot at his mother first?

Surely the biggest threat was Nevill

We have two scenarios described from two point of views

The boutflours " Nevill was a deep sleeper"

Or from Bamber himself " he has only got to get a whiff of a fox in the garden and he is wide awake"

The difference is Jeremy grew up with his dad. And slept in the same premises. Boutflour didn't

Appreciate we are just trying to piece things together

It was around 2am.

He needed to sleep. Just done a long day on the farm & had another long day tomorrow.

He was found bare footed in his bed attire.

He was shot 4 times in the bedroom.

He was shot twice in the face from inches away in the bedroom.

His wife was asleep in bed.

[killingeve]

No, it doesn't.  The evidence is open to interpretation.

I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around.  No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand.  It is possible.  But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.

In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all.  I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.

You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links.  I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you.  I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel.  It seems that neither does Adam.  If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice.  Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.

How it can be open to interpretation when two highly qualified pathologists of long experience agree either one of the headshots Mrs Bamber sustained would have rendered her incapable of involuntary movement thereafter?  The 2 shots to the head were immediately fatal.

Mrs Bamber wasn't crawling around.  The pathological evidence makes it clear she was standing having sustained the 6 not immediately fatal body shots evidenced by the blood staining.

Of course you know more than two highly qualified pathologists of long experience

You are now saying you believe Mrs Bamber's body was moved prior to soc images.  Would that be before or after four casings were moved?   

We all have brains its how they're used or not that counts. 

It's simply unbelievable that you are the first to upload podcasts and media interviews with the CT, which you appear to be fully supportive of, and yet are quite scathing about the pathological evidence.   

[Adam]

How it can be open to interpretation when two highly qualified pathologists of long experience agree either one of the headshots Mrs Bamber sustained would have rendered her incapable of involuntary movement thereafter?  The 2 shots to the head were immediately fatal.

Mrs Bamber wasn't crawling around.  The pathological evidence makes it clear she was standing having sustained the 6 not immediately fatal body shots evidenced by the blood staining.

Of course you know more than two highly qualified pathologists of long experience

You are now saying you believe Mrs Bamber's body was moved prior to soc images.  Would that be before or after four casings were moved?   

We all have brains its how they're used or not that counts. 

It's simply unbelievable that you are the first to upload podcasts and media interviews with the CT, which you appear to be fully supportive of, and yet are quite scathing about the pathological evidence.   

Have you got a source June walked to the other side of the bedroom & back?

Suspect it was a combination of walking, stumbling & crawling. Before finally collapsing.

June going to the box room entrance & back suggests this entrance/exit was blocked.