Author Topic: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations  (Read 2309 times)

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guest29835

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I think polygraph examinations ('lie detector tests') are nonsense and establish nothing one way or the other; I would even say they are dangerous, for a number of reasons, including that they would dumb-down the criminal justice system if they are allowed to creep into police investigations and courtroom evidence.

However, the footage linked below is relevant to the Forum because both Luke and his mother submitted to polygraph examinations conducted by Terry Mullins.

Make of it what you will. 

One important point for context: some people wonder why Luke has his eyes shut throughout his examination.  Both Dr. Lean and Mr Mullins have explained that Luke was advised to do this by Mr Mullins because prison officers could see what was going on in the vestibule in which the test was being conducted and were pulling faces at him!  Are we to believe this?  Don't ask me, I'm just the parrot.

The polygraph examination of Corrine Mitchell, conducted by Terry Mullins on 23rd. February 2012 (location unknown):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5gs81NvOc

The polygraph examination of Luke Mitchell, conducted at HMP Shotts, Scotland, by Terry Mullins, on 25th. April 2012:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boKXAggpHoQ

Offline killingeve

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2022, 07:45:AM »
I think polygraph examinations ('lie detector tests') are nonsense and establish nothing one way or the other; I would even say they are dangerous, for a number of reasons, including that they would dumb-down the criminal justice system if they are allowed to creep into police investigations and courtroom evidence.

However, the footage linked below is relevant to the Forum because both Luke and his mother submitted to polygraph examinations conducted by Terry Mullins.

Make of it what you will. 

One important point for context: some people wonder why Luke has his eyes shut throughout his examination.  Both Dr. Lean and Mr Mullins have explained that Luke was advised to do this by Mr Mullins because prison officers could see what was going on in the vestibule in which the test was being conducted and were pulling faces at him!  Are we to believe this?  Don't ask me, I'm just the parrot.

The polygraph examination of Corrine Mitchell, conducted by Terry Mullins on 23rd. February 2012 (location unknown):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5gs81NvOc

The polygraph examination of Luke Mitchell, conducted at HMP Shotts, Scotland, by Terry Mullins, on 25th. April 2012:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boKXAggpHoQ

With respect if you think they're nonsense and acknowledge they're inadmissible in the justice system why even bother making a post about such?

I've not bothered looking into them for the reasons you've given but others here will cite cases where slam dunks have passed.  Make of that what you will. 

Offline nugnug

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2022, 12:14:PM »
inotie there not considerd nonsense when somone fails just when they pass them.

its ano win with polygraphs refuse to take it your guilty fail it your guilty pass it oh there not reliable anyway.

guest29835

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2022, 05:26:PM »
With respect if you think they're nonsense and acknowledge they're inadmissible in the justice system why even bother making a post about such?

I've not bothered looking into them for the reasons you've given but others here will cite cases where slam dunks have passed.  Make of that what you will.

Not for the first time, I am baffled by your comment and I'm not clear what it is you are trying to say.

I can only add that this is a discussion forum.  I don't agree with polygraphology, but others may do, and the fact is that two central personalities in this case submitted to polygraph examinations, so it's relevant.  What I think about it isn't necessarily what others think about it.

You come across as rather stupid.

Offline lilly15

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2022, 05:29:PM »
inotie there not considerd nonsense when somone fails just when they pass them.

its ano win with polygraphs refuse to take it your guilty fail it your guilty pass it oh there not reliable anyway.

Very good points. That is just how people see them. Definitely lose lose no matter what the result.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2022, 09:24:PM »
Very good points. That is just how people see them. Definitely lose lose no matter what the result.

I don’t understand why lie detectors cannot be used in court in this country but as I understand they are used when deciding to parole sex offendors
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline JackieD

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2022, 09:27:PM »
Lie detector or polygraph testing has long held a compelling allure for those who work with managing sexual risk but, at the same time, the complication remains that we cannot know for sure who we can trust or what that person is really thinking.

Lie detector evidence has never been considered sufficiently reliable to be admissible in British criminal law cases. However, the use of the lie detector in managing suspects and offenders in the community has been quietly going on for some years. This is especially so for sex offenders, albeit by only a handful of police and probation regions. Extensive research from the University of Kent published in early 2020 concluded that the use of the polygraph is effective for sex offenders and should be used much more widely. The Domestic Abuse Bill of 2020 proposed a pilot scheme to make the lie detector test mandatory for people convicted of more serious Domestic Violence crimes, and this legislation is now making its way through Parliament towards an enacted reality.

Recently, we have experienced Police submitting applications for sexual offenders to be required to co-operate with polygraph testing, as part of a Sexual Harm Prevention Order. Offenders are prohibited from refusing to take a polygraph test on pain of a prison sentence of up to 5 years.

Lie detector or polygraph tests are not being used to detect or solve crimes. This might seem odd, but the lie detector is used to help the police or probation service manage the risk that a suspect or offender might pose whilst in the community. For example, they want to know the truth about whether someone is really having contact with children behind their backs, or is thinking about child abuse.  Many sex offenders have special orders restricting movement or use of the internet, and the police want to know if they are sticking to them. This information is known as a Risk Relevant Disclosure and the police can then take whatever action is appropriate. They are trying to keep the public safe.

Equally, police are not particularly relying on the results of the lie detector. Rather, they mostly rely on what the subject tells them before or after the test. Thus, the police can rely on what the subject admits is their risk relevant behaviour rather than what the test ‘proves’. However, all of the research shows that the number of Risk Relevant Disclosures massively increases when lie detectors will be or have been used. In the face of the test, many confess, and this is the key to its usefulness.

Polygraph testing may be controversial in some quarters but it is not some bogus science. There are strict and complex codes of practice and an examiner must undergo extensive training. Such are the demands of the job that research recommends that examiners do the job exclusively. Most best practice has been imported from America, where polygraph testing is much more established and regulated. Advocates of the polygraph claim very high accuracy, upwards of 85% and often upwards of 95%, although there is good reason the evidence remains inadmissible in criminal court trials. It only ever forms one part of a range of available management tools.

The procedure of a lie detector test lasts several hours. There will be a pre-test phase during which the examiner will gather the subject’s version of the facts regarding the single issue in question. They will formulate together the questions to be asked during the test. After calibrating the equipment to the person being tested, the polygraph testing will begin. The subject will be asked the agreed series of questions typically 3 or 4 times. In the post-test phase the results will be analysed and the subject will usually be told about them then and there. The analysis of polygraph test results is a specialist topic, with results falling into the categories of indicative of deception, not indicative of deception, or (occasionally) inconclusive.

The polygraph examination itself involves measuring the cardiovascular, respiratory and electrodermal systems. The sensors comprise a blood pressure cuff on the arm, rubber tubes on the chest and abdomen and two small metal plates on the fingers of one hand. The actual test usually lasts 15-20 minutes

Nonetheless, the lie detector remains controversial, especially when used with suspects who have not been convicted of any crime, even if they have admitted offending.

Some worry about the quality of the process itself, the regulation and scrutiny of which remains relatively low, whilst others worry about the apparent lack of trust between offender manager and offender.  Additionally, there are concerns around the principle of requiring people (whether mandatory or through perceived consequences of not volunteering) to talk and answer questions when our democracy and criminal justice system (based on centuries of carefully developed legal process) profoundly protects the rights of an individual to remain silent. Some worry about the cost and resource implications. Some worry that it may reward the most sophisticated offenders who can ‘beat the test’.

Others will very much welcome another tool in the battle to keep society, and especially children, safe from sex offenders. It is clear that the officers who use polygraphs consider it a valuable tool.  Some ex-offenders welcome the chance to ‘prove’ they are safe (though the research indicates that police give greater importance to tests indicating deception). Polygraph testing in social services investigations is largely unexplored territory but potentially offers a useful tool to social workers. Criminal Courts might start considering evidence from polygraph tests in relation to sentencing, perhaps supporting a submission that an offender can be safely managed in the community. It would be interesting, for example, as a defence practitioner to meet an application for an SHPO to include polygraph testing, when a pre-existing polygraph test evidences that such an order be unnecessary.

The apparent effectiveness of polygraph testing in substantially increasing Risk Relevant Disclosures is relative to similar groups of offenders who have not been tested. None of the research appears to have distinguished those who have undertaken a therapeutic treatment program, particularly those who have had a psychologically informed one-to-one intervention. This may be important, because such interventions focus on the drivers or causes of offending, against a deep understanding of risk factors and treatment need.

Perhaps the biggest criticism of polygraph testing is that there is little evidence that it reduces risk or reduces reoffending. Although intuitively a Risk Relevant Disclosure seems helpful, this assumes that an officer’s assessment or knowledge of risk factors bears scrutiny. For example, on conviction Sexual Harm Prevention Orders are handed out almost routinely by courts and the terms, though notionally bespoke, are typically boilerplate and very often have little to do with risk the offender presents. So, breach of such an order may be risk related, but still has little to do with sexual reoffending. There is also the question of what, if anything, an officer does with a Risk Relevant Disclosure.

For the cost to be justified, there should to be good evidence that lie detectors reduce offending. It is worth noting that the UK has one of the most onerous and substantial sex offender management schemes in the world, and yet our re-offending rates do not appear to be better than in countries who take a different approach. The UK’s record of using effective interventions remains significantly tainted by the Sex Offender Treatment Program scandal. Lie detectors make good headlines. If the same money were spent on effective treatment, might there be fewer future victims?

In conclusion, polygraph testing is a useful tool in the armoury of law enforcement officers. There is a compelling case for expanding the use of polygraph testing for convicted sex offenders. The process is useful because subjects confess readily to risky behaviours. There is perhaps more to be done to relax supervision of those who ‘pass’ the test so that more resource can be devoted to those perceived to be of higher t risk Moreover, polygraph testing should not be seen as either a panacea or even a scientifically reassuring answer to the risk posed by convicted sex offenders in the community. To effectively reduce reoffending, we must do more to understand the drivers and risk factors for individual offenders and tackle those causes. The research on the effectiveness of lie detectors appears to show that we are not doing nearly enough on this front.
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2022, 01:16:PM »
Polygraph examinations measure physiological responses.  To that extent, they are accurate, subject to calibration considerations.  If a polygraph test says my heart beat got faster when you asked me, 'Do you use magic mushrooms on a regular basis, as Steve claims?', and I answered, 'Yes, I use them all the time', then it is simply true that my heart beat got faster when you asked and I answered that question.  The only task left to us is to interrogate the machine and ask whether and how it is calibrated to deliver accurate reports of physiological reactions and responses. We would also need to control for environmental factors, such as room temperature, which I assume is measured and monitored.  Assuming those inquiries are satisfactory, we can conclude that, on a particular day at a particular time, my heart beat got faster when I was asked and answered a particular question by a certain person in a certain room heated at a comfortable room temperature while dressed in normal clothes and not under any sort of duress.

However, this does not prove that my answer, 'Yes, I use them all the time, six before breakfast, so what you going to do about it Terry me lad?  Eh?', is true.  To establish this probabilistically, you would need to, at the very least, demonstrate that there is a correlation between average heart rate (and whatever other responses we are measuring) and the factual veracity of statements (truth-telling or lie-telling). 

I assume you would also need to control for the likely impact of psychedelic drugs on physiological response - and in all seriousness, that raises a whole other question about variables and how they affect the validity of any summative statements issued by polygraph examiners as a result of their tests.  What about mental illness?  What about the risks in genericising questions?  Mr Mullins himself touches on that problem in his interview with James English and makes what, for me, is a key admission that undermines the whole field of polygraphology as a verification tool.

Mullins tells English that if, let's say, an employee is accused of theft, one technique he uses is to put the question in a general, open-ended way, such as, 'Have you ever stolen from your employer?'  This leaves the employee unable to answer truthfully if he has at some point stolen from the employer, just not on that occasion, but wants to withhold that incriminating information.

What this tells me is that polygraph testing is a psychological-interrogative tool rather than a verification-investigative tool.  It's just a more sophisticated questioning technique intended to lull credulous or gullible people into divulging information.  It's theatre.

If Mr Mullins told me, 'No, you're lying Mr Chevalier.  You're not a mushroom user!  In fact, I'm a bigger magic mushroom user than you!  All of us polygraph examiners use them!", what he is now doing is trying to intimidate me.  In a serious scenario, he might say to a failed examinee: "Well, the test shows that your responses indicate heightened anxiety when asked certain questions.  Is there anything you would like to disclose to me?"

Polygraph testing is a confidence trick - albeit I accept that it is perhaps executed with the best of intentions.  People do need to own up to their wrong-doing.  But what if Luke Mitchell is guilty and he has now secured apparent 'scientific' support for his denials? 

guest29835

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2022, 01:45:PM »
inotie there not considerd nonsense when somone fails just when they pass them.

its ano win with polygraphs refuse to take it your guilty fail it your guilty pass it oh there not reliable anyway.

This may be true, but to be clear: I am sceptical of these tests generally, I am not just picking on this specific case. 

If Luke had used the test as an opportunity to make a confession and said 'Yes' when asked if he stabbed Jodi, but he then failed the test, would then people say the test is false and the confession true, or the test is true and the confession false?  Here you would have a 'double false positive' conundrum.  Of course, if such an answer were given, I assume the polygraph examiner would deem the so-called 'lie detector test' as 'passed' and disregard any physiological data that suggested the contrary.  But let's assume we have a polygraph examiner who never tells lies and stands by his verdict that Luke has failed the test.

Short of micro-analysing the physiological data collected when he gave that specific answer, or simply changing the test result, the only way to resolve this would be to say that the confession is an integral part of the test, so the confession is false.  Yet few if anybody on the guilty side would accept this, due to the nature of the question. 

On a different note, I was watching Corrine's polygraph examination the other day and noticed that she was asked this interesting question [words to the effect]:

Did you lie between 1995 and 2000 to get an innocent person into serious trouble?

What's all that about?

Incidentally, in the video of Corrine, she looks a strikingly attractive lady (at least, to my tastes). Luke was a handsome young man.  Corrine's life was destroyed.  Luke may not be released from prison until he is very old or elderly.  Even if guilty, how sad and what a shame.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2022, 02:18:PM »
they never cliam were 100 perccent reliable thats why they dont use them in court  but there used by investigations a lot so the must have at least some reliabilty or they wouldent use them.

guest29835

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2022, 02:31:PM »
they never cliam were 100 perccent reliable thats why they dont use them in court  but there used by investigations a lot so the must have at least some reliabilty or they wouldent use them.

I was not aware they are used by British police forces in criminal investigation, only in private corporate investigations.  But in any event, I see a flaw in your reasoning.  If they have a large false positive rate - which even polygraph examiners admit they do - then they are not reliable.  Polygraph examiners fall back on the defence that a 'lie detector test' result is one factor to consider alongside others, but if the test itself is not reliable, then the argument is negated from the start.

I do agree the tests have value, but it's not in their reliability.  The reason they are used by private investigators and maybe by parole services and others is that they have value as a psychological tool for interrogation and intimidation.  It's essentially theatre. 

Offline nugnug

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2022, 05:01:PM »
there not used by the police here they are used a lot by police in amerca and there usedbysome govement departments here suh as probation.

false postives yes but not false negatives so they are of some use

a false postive ie there liable to say somone is lying when there not

but there a lot less likely to say somone is telling the tuth when they are lying.

guest29835

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2022, 05:22:PM »
there not used by the police here they are used a lot by police in amerca and there usedbysome govement departments here suh as probation.

false postives yes but not false negatives so they are of some use

a false postive ie there liable to say somone is lying when there not

but there a lot less likely to say somone is telling the tuth when they are lying.

Yes, that's an intriguing thought: are these tests also 'truth detectors'?  You may think they are by default in that a person who 'passes' is deemed not to be lying, but does it follow that the 'passed' individual is always telling the truth in whatever they are claiming or does it just mean they are deemed not to be lying, if you see the distinction?  I'm not sure if the distinction matters much here, I'd need to think more about it, but I can imagine it could in some cases.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2022, 06:57:PM »
Polygraph examinations measure physiological responses.  To that extent, they are accurate, subject to calibration considerations.  If a polygraph test says my heart beat got faster when you asked me, 'Do you use magic mushrooms on a regular basis, as Steve claims?', and I answered, 'Yes, I use them all the time', then it is simply true that my heart beat got faster when you asked and I answered that question.  The only task left to us is to interrogate the machine and ask whether and how it is calibrated to deliver accurate reports of physiological reactions and responses. We would also need to control for environmental factors, such as room temperature, which I assume is measured and monitored.  Assuming those inquiries are satisfactory, we can conclude that, on a particular day at a particular time, my heart beat got faster when I was asked and answered a particular question by a certain person in a certain room heated at a comfortable room temperature while dressed in normal clothes and not under any sort of duress.

However, this does not prove that my answer, 'Yes, I use them all the time, six before breakfast, so what you going to do about it Terry me lad?  Eh?', is true.  To establish this probabilistically, you would need to, at the very least, demonstrate that there is a correlation between average heart rate (and whatever other responses we are measuring) and the factual veracity of statements (truth-telling or lie-telling). 

I assume you would also need to control for the likely impact of psychedelic drugs on physiological response - and in all seriousness, that raises a whole other question about variables and how they affect the validity of any summative statements issued by polygraph examiners as a result of their tests.  What about mental illness?  What about the risks in genericising questions?  Mr Mullins himself touches on that problem in his interview with James English and makes what, for me, is a key admission that undermines the whole field of polygraphology as a verification tool.

Mullins tells English that if, let's say, an employee is accused of theft, one technique he uses is to put the question in a general, open-ended way, such as, 'Have you ever stolen from your employer?'  This leaves the employee unable to answer truthfully if he has at some point stolen from the employer, just not on that occasion, but wants to withhold that incriminating information.

What this tells me is that polygraph testing is a psychological-interrogative tool rather than a verification-investigative tool.  It's just a more sophisticated questioning technique intended to lull credulous or gullible people into divulging information.  It's theatre.

If Mr Mullins told me, 'No, you're lying Mr Chevalier.  You're not a mushroom user!  In fact, I'm a bigger magic mushroom user than you!  All of us polygraph examiners use them!", what he is now doing is trying to intimidate me.  In a serious scenario, he might say to a failed examinee: "Well, the test shows that your responses indicate heightened anxiety when asked certain questions.  Is there anything you would like to disclose to me?"

Polygraph testing is a confidence trick - albeit I accept that it is perhaps executed with the best of intentions.  People do need to own up to their wrong-doing.  But what if Luke Mitchell is guilty and he has now secured apparent 'scientific' support for his denials?
You were being quite nice thus far, though it's true I've been absent from the Forum for several days.

guest29835

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Re: Luke and Corrine Mitchell undergoing polygraph examinations
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 07:05:PM »
You were being quite nice thus far, though it's true I've been absent from the Forum for several days.

It's characteristic of you not to comment on the topic in hand, but instead to comment about yourself.  You're the one who keeps bringing up this allegation that I have somehow been mixed-up in drugs.  In fact, I have not, and in so far as I have touched on the topic in regard to myself, I merely jest.  Aside from one single incident at the age of 15, I have never taken any sort of recreational drugs in my life.  I don't even drink as a matter of course.  I'm fairly Puritan in that regard.

I do, however, know of some people who were involved in drugs: Jeremy, Sheila and Julie.  The topic quite upsets you, which leaves me puzzled as to why you linger on it.