A Jeremy Scenario

[lookout]

Did you enjoy that, Adam---BRAT !!

[Adam]

Just responding to QC's scenario.

It is strange how people try to complicate things. Follow the evidence & it is a straight forward scenario.

[Rob_]

There is no need to post the same thing over and over, cluttering up the forum Adam.

No wonder it's so hard to find information.

[Adam]

There is no need to post the same thing over and over, cluttering up the forum Adam.

No wonder it's so hard to find information.

I did used to copy & paste a section. Then reply underneath. That took up less room.

However QC complained about this.

[lookout]

There is no need to post the same thing over and over, cluttering up the forum Adam.

No wonder it's so hard to find information.

Purposely done Rob because it wasn't his post---not that he could post like that to start with.

[guest29835]

Thanks QC that was a interesting read.

I have a couple of questions:

The bullet cases in the master bedroom/kitchen do not match with your scenario?

Also I was thinking about the dog, it would have made a racket as JB came in through the window and especially as soon as the first shot was fired?

I also think it unlikely Sheila would have slept with June just to be a few feet nearer the twins?

The location of the spent cartridges cannot be relied on as they could have easily been moved around by police officers marching all over the crime scene in thick-tread boots.

Bruce was in the yard and I think he was open-kennelled.  He probably barked initially, but on recognising Jeremy (by scent), he would have quickly stopped. 

Crispy was asleep downstairs, I believe, but you will see that my scenario has Nevill alerted by the noise of Jeremy's entry into the farmhouse.  There are two further points to consider, though.  First, Jeremy had a habit of entering the farmhouse in this manner, and probably Crispy would have recognised him.  Second, it also depends on which window Jeremy used.  There is the kitchen window, but knowing about Crispy and the stuff on the sink top, Jeremy may have decided to enter via the downstairs shower/WC window.  This would presumably have the advantage that the shower/WC door was closed, so any noise was less likely to alert Nevill, if he were downstairs.

It has occurred to me that Jeremy may have anticipated that Nevill would be asleep downstairs or sitting in the lounge, even at a late hour, so I have edited my scenario to allow for this by adding a section at the end.

I agree it would be odd for a 28 year old son to sleep in the same bed as his mother and father, but Sheila was a woman, so it's a bit different, and remember she was severely mentally-ill and had all sorts of 'issues'.  In a sense, her parents were still her carers.  She may have found it easier to be in the main bedroom to access the twins, especially if the twins also had a habit of walking into the main bedroom through the box room. I know from experience that small boys will often want maternal comfort at night and/or in the morning and will climb into bed with 'Mummy' or 'Granny'.

The main reason I posit Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place is because it very much fits the evidence and explains an issue I have with the prosecution case, which is why Jeremy would position Sheila in the main bedroom rather than with the twins.  And apart from what Jeremy would plan to do, wouldn't a threatened Sheila run towards the twins instinctively and end up with them anyway? 

To my mind, it only makes sense if we say that:

(i). Sheila was shot in her own bedroom or the main bedroom without transiting from one to the other; and,
(ii). Sheila was caught in a position where Jeremy could very quickly pull her off the bed and pin her to the floor.

That points to Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place.  I think all the evidence: blood, pathological, ballistic, is consistent with this possibility.  I only say it is a possibility, and I do not say it is without problems, though it seems the problem is psychological-behavioural, not strictly forensic: i.e. why Sheila would sleep in the main bed, isn't that odd, etc.

[Adam]

The location of the spent cartridges cannot be relied on as they could have easily been moved around by police officers marching all over the crime scene in thick-tread boots.

Bruce was in the yard and I think he was open-kennelled.  He probably barked initially, but on recognising Jeremy (by scent), he would have quickly stopped. 

Crispy was asleep downstairs, I believe, but you will see that my scenario has Nevill alerted by the noise of Jeremy's entry into the farmhouse.  There are two further points to consider, though.  First, Jeremy had a habit of entering the farmhouse in this manner, and probably Crispy would have recognised him.  Second, it also depends on which window Jeremy used.  There is the kitchen window, but knowing about Crispy and the stuff on the sink top, Jeremy may have decided to enter via the downstairs shower/WC window.  This would presumably have the advantage that the shower/WC door was closed, so any noise was less likely to alert Nevill, if he were downstairs.

It has occurred to me that Jeremy may have anticipated that Nevill would be asleep downstairs or sitting in the lounge, even at a late hour, so I have edited my scenario to allow for this by adding a section at the end.

I agree it would be odd for a 28 year old son to sleep in the same bed as his mother and father, but Sheila was a woman, so it's a bit different, and remember she was mentally-ill and had all sorts of 'issues'.  She may have found it easier to be in the main bedroom to access the twins or if the twins had a habit of walking into the main bedroom through the box room. I know from experience that small boys will often want maternal comfort at night and/or in the morning and will climb into bed with 'Mummy' or 'Granny'.

The main reason I posit Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place is because it very much fits the evidence and explains an issue I have with the prosecution case, which is why Jeremy would position Sheila in the main bedroom rather than with the twins.  Apart from anything else, wouldn't a threatened Sheila run towards the twins instinctively and end up with them anyway? 

To my mind, it only makes sense if we say that:

(i). Sheila was shot in her own bedroom or the main bedroom without transiting from one to the other; and,
(ii). Sheila was caught in a position where Jeremy would very quickly pull her off the bed and pin her to the floor.

I think all the evidence: blood, pathological, ballistic, is consistent with this possibility.  I only say it is a possibility, and I do not say it is without problems, though it seems the problem is psychological-behavioural, not strictly forensic: i.e. why Sheila would sleep in the main bed, isn't that odd, etc.

No evidence they were.

You rwally should create a scenario on the evidence.

[guest29835]

No evidence they were.

You rwally should create a scenario on the evidence.

I have done so.  My scenario is based on the evidence.

[Adam]

The location of the spent cartridges cannot be relied on as they could have easily been moved around by police officers marching all over the crime scene in thick-tread boots.

Bruce was in the yard and I think he was open-kennelled.  He probably barked initially, but on recognising Jeremy (by scent), he would have quickly stopped. 

Crispy was asleep downstairs, I believe, but you will see that my scenario has Nevill alerted by the noise of Jeremy's entry into the farmhouse.  There are two further points to consider, though.  First, Jeremy had a habit of entering the farmhouse in this manner, and probably Crispy would have recognised him.  Second, it also depends on which window Jeremy used.  There is the kitchen window, but knowing about Crispy and the stuff on the sink top, Jeremy may have decided to enter via the downstairs shower/WC window.  This would presumably have the advantage that the shower/WC door was closed, so any noise was less likely to alert Nevill, if he were downstairs.

It has occurred to me that Jeremy may have anticipated that Nevill would be asleep downstairs or sitting in the lounge, even at a late hour, so I have edited my scenario to allow for this by adding a section at the end.

I agree it would be odd for a 28 year old son to sleep in the same bed as his mother and father, but Sheila was a woman, so it's a bit different, and remember she was severely mentally-ill and had all sorts of 'issues'.  In a sense, her parents were still her carers.  She may have found it easier to be in the main bedroom to access the twins, especially if the twins also had a habit of walking into the main bedroom through the box room. I know from experience that small boys will often want maternal comfort at night and/or in the morning and will climb into bed with 'Mummy' or 'Granny'.

The main reason I posit Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place is because it very much fits the evidence and explains an issue I have with the prosecution case, which is why Jeremy would position Sheila in the main bedroom rather than with the twins.  Apart from anything else, wouldn't a threatened Sheila run towards the twins instinctively and end up with them anyway? 

To my mind, it only makes sense if we say that:

(i). Sheila was shot in her own bedroom or the main bedroom without transiting from one to the other; and,
(ii). Sheila was caught in a position where Jeremy could very quickly pull her off the bed and pin her to the floor.

I think all the evidence: blood, pathological, ballistic, is consistent with this possibility.  I only say it is a possibility, and I do not say it is without problems, though it seems the problem is psychological-behavioural, not strictly forensic: i.e. why Sheila would sleep in the main bed, isn't that odd, etc.

Doubt Nevill woke.

He was upstairs, asleep behind closed doors.

Bamber had probably perfected a quiet entrance routine.

[guest29835]

Here we go again...

[Adam]

The location of the spent cartridges cannot be relied on as they could have easily been moved around by police officers marching all over the crime scene in thick-tread boots.

Bruce was in the yard and I think he was open-kennelled.  He probably barked initially, but on recognising Jeremy (by scent), he would have quickly stopped. 

Crispy was asleep downstairs, I believe, but you will see that my scenario has Nevill alerted by the noise of Jeremy's entry into the farmhouse.  There are two further points to consider, though.  First, Jeremy had a habit of entering the farmhouse in this manner, and probably Crispy would have recognised him.  Second, it also depends on which window Jeremy used.  There is the kitchen window, but knowing about Crispy and the stuff on the sink top, Jeremy may have decided to enter via the downstairs shower/WC window.  This would presumably have the advantage that the shower/WC door was closed, so any noise was less likely to alert Nevill, if he were downstairs.

It has occurred to me that Jeremy may have anticipated that Nevill would be asleep downstairs or sitting in the lounge, even at a late hour, so I have edited my scenario to allow for this by adding a section at the end.

I agree it would be odd for a 28 year old son to sleep in the same bed as his mother and father, but Sheila was a woman, so it's a bit different, and remember she was severely mentally-ill and had all sorts of 'issues'.  In a sense, her parents were still her carers.  She may have found it easier to be in the main bedroom to access the twins, especially if the twins also had a habit of walking into the main bedroom through the box room. I know from experience that small boys will often want maternal comfort at night and/or in the morning and will climb into bed with 'Mummy' or 'Granny'.

The main reason I posit Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place is because it very much fits the evidence and explains an issue I have with the prosecution case, which is why Jeremy would position Sheila in the main bedroom rather than with the twins.  And apart from what Jeremy would plan to do, wouldn't a threatened Sheila run towards the twins instinctively and end up with them anyway? 

To my mind, it only makes sense if we say that:

(i). Sheila was shot in her own bedroom or the main bedroom without transiting from one to the other; and,
(ii). Sheila was caught in a position where Jeremy could very quickly pull her off the bed and pin her to the floor.

I think all the evidence: blood, pathological, ballistic, is consistent with this possibility.  I only say it is a possibility, and I do not say it is without problems, though it seems the problem is psychological-behavioural, not strictly forensic: i.e. why Sheila would sleep in the main bed, isn't that odd, etc.

Don't recall ever climbing into bed with granny.

[Adam]

The location of the spent cartridges cannot be relied on as they could have easily been moved around by police officers marching all over the crime scene in thick-tread boots.

Bruce was in the yard and I think he was open-kennelled.  He probably barked initially, but on recognising Jeremy (by scent), he would have quickly stopped. 

Crispy was asleep downstairs, I believe, but you will see that my scenario has Nevill alerted by the noise of Jeremy's entry into the farmhouse.  There are two further points to consider, though.  First, Jeremy had a habit of entering the farmhouse in this manner, and probably Crispy would have recognised him.  Second, it also depends on which window Jeremy used.  There is the kitchen window, but knowing about Crispy and the stuff on the sink top, Jeremy may have decided to enter via the downstairs shower/WC window.  This would presumably have the advantage that the shower/WC door was closed, so any noise was less likely to alert Nevill, if he were downstairs.

It has occurred to me that Jeremy may have anticipated that Nevill would be asleep downstairs or sitting in the lounge, even at a late hour, so I have edited my scenario to allow for this by adding a section at the end.

I agree it would be odd for a 28 year old son to sleep in the same bed as his mother and father, but Sheila was a woman, so it's a bit different, and remember she was severely mentally-ill and had all sorts of 'issues'.  In a sense, her parents were still her carers.  She may have found it easier to be in the main bedroom to access the twins, especially if the twins also had a habit of walking into the main bedroom through the box room. I know from experience that small boys will often want maternal comfort at night and/or in the morning and will climb into bed with 'Mummy' or 'Granny'.

The main reason I posit Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place is because it very much fits the evidence and explains an issue I have with the prosecution case, which is why Jeremy would position Sheila in the main bedroom rather than with the twins.  And apart from what Jeremy would plan to do, wouldn't a threatened Sheila run towards the twins instinctively and end up with them anyway? 

To my mind, it only makes sense if we say that:

(i). Sheila was shot in her own bedroom or the main bedroom without transiting from one to the other; and,
(ii). Sheila was caught in a position where Jeremy could very quickly pull her off the bed and pin her to the floor.

That points to Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place.  I think all the evidence: blood, pathological, ballistic, is consistent with this possibility.  I only say it is a possibility, and I do not say it is without problems, though it seems the problem is psychological-behavioural, not strictly forensic: i.e. why Sheila would sleep in the main bed, isn't that odd, etc.

The successful prosecution case is Sheila was moved from her bedroom.

[Rob_]

The location of the spent cartridges cannot be relied on as they could have easily been moved around by police officers marching all over the crime scene in thick-tread boots.

Bruce was in the yard and I think he was open-kennelled.  He probably barked initially, but on recognising Jeremy (by scent), he would have quickly stopped. 

Crispy was asleep downstairs, I believe, but you will see that my scenario has Nevill alerted by the noise of Jeremy's entry into the farmhouse.  There are two further points to consider, though.  First, Jeremy had a habit of entering the farmhouse in this manner, and probably Crispy would have recognised him.  Second, it also depends on which window Jeremy used.  There is the kitchen window, but knowing about Crispy and the stuff on the sink top, Jeremy may have decided to enter via the downstairs shower/WC window.  This would presumably have the advantage that the shower/WC door was closed, so any noise was less likely to alert Nevill, if he were downstairs.

It has occurred to me that Jeremy may have anticipated that Nevill would be asleep downstairs or sitting in the lounge, even at a late hour, so I have edited my scenario to allow for this by adding a section at the end.

I agree it would be odd for a 28 year old son to sleep in the same bed as his mother and father, but Sheila was a woman, so it's a bit different, and remember she was severely mentally-ill and had all sorts of 'issues'.  In a sense, her parents were still her carers.  She may have found it easier to be in the main bedroom to access the twins, especially if the twins also had a habit of walking into the main bedroom through the box room. I know from experience that small boys will often want maternal comfort at night and/or in the morning and will climb into bed with 'Mummy' or 'Granny'.

The main reason I posit Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place is because it very much fits the evidence and explains an issue I have with the prosecution case, which is why Jeremy would position Sheila in the main bedroom rather than with the twins.  And apart from what Jeremy would plan to do, wouldn't a threatened Sheila run towards the twins instinctively and end up with them anyway? 

To my mind, it only makes sense if we say that:

(i). Sheila was shot in her own bedroom or the main bedroom without transiting from one to the other; and,
(ii). Sheila was caught in a position where Jeremy could very quickly pull her off the bed and pin her to the floor.

That points to Sheila sleeping in Nevill's place.  I think all the evidence: blood, pathological, ballistic, is consistent with this possibility.  I only say it is a possibility, and I do not say it is without problems, though it seems the problem is psychological-behavioural, not strictly forensic: i.e. why Sheila would sleep in the main bed, isn't that odd, etc.

Thanks for your detailed reply QC, it does answer a lot of questions if Sheila is in the master bedroom with June.

If she was then probably Sheila was shot while asleep before June was shot? assuming no one had been woken up by the racket downstairs? Unless JB crept up the stairs first, but I think JB's first priority was dealing with Nevil?

One problem I see is why would JB put Sheila on the floor, if she is already beside June why not leave her their? he would have literally a second to do this or the blood staining etc. would give the game away?

Do you see any significance in Nevil being beside the kitchen door? I would have expected him to have been near the phone?

[guest29835]

Thanks for your detailed reply QC, it does answer a lot of questions if Sheila is in the master bedroom with June.

If she was then probably Sheila was shot while asleep before June was shot? assuming no one had been woken up by the racket downstairs? Unless JB crept up the stairs first, but I think JB's first priority was dealing with Nevil?

One problem I see is why would JB put Sheila on the floor, if she is already beside June why not leave her their? he would have literally a second to do this or the blood staining etc. would give the game away?

Do you see any significance in Nevil being beside the kitchen door? I would have expected him to have been near the phone?

In my scenario above, Nevill is shot first, as you can see.  There were blood finger marks near the phone, which may indicate Nevill was trying to reach it.  He may have been stopped by Jeremy, who has then pushed him away, and Nevill has then made for the kitchen door, perhaps in the forlorn hope of getting to the den or the back door.

June is shot before Sheila as she comes out on to the landing to see what the commotion is.  June crawls around a bit, leaving blood, then Jeremy shoots her between the eyes; or, Jeremy leaves June for dead but she is still alive and is moving around, and he shoots her between the eyes later after killing the twins.

Pulling Sheila off the bed makes sense as part of a murder-suicide staging.  If he killed her in bed, it may look suspicious.  I would guess it's also an instinctive control thing.  He has to act quickly.  He needs to take control.  The springiness of the bed may make lining up the rifle barrel with her still on the bed difficult.  So he quickly pulls her off.  He is holding the rifle while he does this.  He then pins her down.  Peter Vanezis' evidence is probably correct that Sheila was shot while slightly sitting up.  What may have happened is that as he is pinning her down on the floor, she starts to struggle, and he may have inadvertently shot her before he quite had her lying flat.

[guest29835]

This is more a note to myself than anything.  When adding the additional section 5 to my original post, it occurs to me that if Jeremy knows Nevill could be asleep downstairs, that puts a hole in the prosecution scenario because you then have to explain how Jeremy comes to shoot Nevill.  It can't be that Jeremy goes upstairs first.  I agree with Rob that Jeremy must negate Nevill first. 

Does this mean that Jeremy lures Nevill into the kitchen, maybe by making some noise?  One possibility is that Jeremy makes his presence known to Nevill, but in an apparently benign way, thus tricking him.  Yet the back and front doors are locked from the inside, so wouldn't Nevill be angry and suspicious, if anything?  I have a few thoughts on this, but I tend to the view that Jeremy may have entered the farmhouse knowing that he could immediately alert Nevill and have to struggle with him, but then isn't that bad planning with a huge risk that Nevill would alert the outside world or get to a weapon first?

The problem of thinking aloud!  Another possibility is that Jeremy decided that, if necessary, he could start upstairs and deal with Nevill later on the basis that Nevill does not hear or does not fully realise what is going on.  Jeremy then returns down the stairs and at that point is confronted by a puzzled Nevill.