Wet Suit recovered from WHF by police...

[grahameb]

Yes,I have read about this before,but read that half was taken from whf and half from JBs cottage.Obviously an error in the book.
So this rubbishes the statement of the man at the caravan park,who stated that he witnessed Jeremy burning his wetsuit.
Vidvic..........any comments on this?

Hi Tyler, any idea who at the caravan site alleged that he, or she, witnessed Jeremy burning his wet suit?

That was a lie or a mistake by that person. Because I know the person who has them in safe keeping. It is up to them if they decide to post. They asked me if they should post. I told them it was up to them. But that is what they told me and they have known Jeremy for many years.

[SUMMER]

It's certainly sad, in parts. I've spent much of today re-reading it, and unfortunately it just convinces me more.

Hi Shona, I haven't received my copy yet. Can I ask what aspects of the book have further convinced you?

I read it some time ago. Why don't folk use their public library more? It certainly is a very haunting book and it does convey Colin's sadness and the mournful lament that things could have been much different if he has stayed with Sheila. But we must also remember that it is all from one perspective. His. I was left with mixed feelings. (1) That Jeremy is definitely innocent. (2) That Colin did come out with some strange expressions, such as "This little robin drew our attention to the window". And other things. This and other things make me feel that everything in his book may be a bit coloured because he is convinced that Jeremy is guilty

Graham, I am almost finished reading Colin Caffell's book. (Yes, it made me sad too.)
Here is my impression:

Colin spent many years trying to come to terms with feeling guilty about his immaturity, adulteries
and failure to protect the twins from White House Farm and it's inhabitants. They begged him to
get June Bamber to stop upsetting them with the praying,etc.
As you will have read in his book, he is in no doubt that June Bamber brought death to the door
of White House Farm.
(Madness to Sheila and he chose to believe the relatives that it was Jeremy who committed
the murders - after  he, (Colin) spent time with the relatives listening to their view point.)
It would certainly be easier to accept that Jeremy had done it, rather than Sheila.
Because if it was Sheila, then he failed to stop that fateful final stay, by the twins, his sons, at White House Farm and even drove them there.
How difficult would it be to live with that knowledge?
I personally loved his book.
He shares the journey he took so many years to make in achieving some kind of peace within
himself again after an horrific tragedy.
But I still think he may be wrong about Jeremy being the killer. Unfortunately.

[clifford]

It's certainly sad, in parts. I've spent much of today re-reading it, and unfortunately it just convinces me more.

Hi Shona, I haven't received my copy yet. Can I ask what aspects of the book have further convinced you?

I read it some time ago. Why don't folk use their public library more? It certainly is a very haunting book and it does convey Colin's sadness and the mournful lament that things could have been much different if he has stayed with Sheila. But we must also remember that it is all from one perspective. His. I was left with mixed feelings. (1) That Jeremy is definitely innocent. (2) That Colin did come out with some strange expressions, such as "This little robin drew our attention to the window". And other things. This and other things make me feel that everything in his book may be a bit coloured because he is convinced that Jeremy is guilty

Graham, I am almost finished reading Colin Caffell's book. (Yes, it made me sad too.)
Here is my impression:

Colin spent many years trying to come to terms with feeling guilty about his immaturity, adulteries
and failure to protect the twins from White House Farm and it's inhabitants. They begged him to
get June Bamber to stop upsetting them with the praying,etc.
As you will have read in his book, he is in no doubt that June Bamber brought death to the door
of White House Farm.
(Madness to Sheila and he chose to believe the relatives that it was Jeremy who committed
the murders - after  he, (Colin) spent time with the relatives listening to their view point.)
It would certainly be easier to accept that Jeremy had done it, rather than Sheila.
Because if it was Sheila, then he failed to stop that fateful final stay, by the twins, his sons, at White House Farm and even drove them there.
How difficult would it be to live with that knowledge?
I personally loved his book.
He shares the journey he took so many years to make in achieving some kind of peace within
himself again after an horrific tragedy.
But I still think he may be wrong about Jeremy being the killer. Unfortunately.

That was a nice post Summer, but Colin had a lot to answer for. He was two timing for a start.
As regards the family convincing him of JBs guilt, well they convinced plod. Jeremy was a voice in the wilderness, no shoulder to cry on, no help, no family, no one. totally alone.
We on this forum are his family now. and I hold my hand out to him.

[grahameb]

It's certainly sad, in parts. I've spent much of today re-reading it, and unfortunately it just convinces me more.

Hi Shona, I haven't received my copy yet. Can I ask what aspects of the book have further convinced you?

I read it some time ago. Why don't folk use their public library more? It certainly is a very haunting book and it does convey Colin's sadness and the mournful lament that things could have been much different if he has stayed with Sheila. But we must also remember that it is all from one perspective. His. I was left with mixed feelings. (1) That Jeremy is definitely innocent. (2) That Colin did come out with some strange expressions, such as "This little robin drew our attention to the window". And other things. This and other things make me feel that everything in his book may be a bit coloured because he is convinced that Jeremy is guilty

Graham, I am almost finished reading Colin Caffell's book. (Yes, it made me sad too.)
Here is my impression:

Colin spent many years trying to come to terms with feeling guilty about his immaturity, adulteries
and failure to protect the twins from White House Farm and it's inhabitants. They begged him to
get June Bamber to stop upsetting them with the praying,etc.
As you will have read in his book, he is in no doubt that June Bamber brought death to the door
of White House Farm.
(Madness to Sheila and he chose to believe the relatives that it was Jeremy who committed
the murders - after  he, (Colin) spent time with the relatives listening to their view point.)
It would certainly be easier to accept that Jeremy had done it, rather than Sheila.
Because if it was Sheila, then he failed to stop that fateful final stay, by the twins, his sons, at White House Farm and even drove them there.
How difficult would it be to live with that knowledge?
I personally loved his book.
He shares the journey he took so many years to make in achieving some kind of peace within
himself again after an horrific tragedy.
But I still think he may be wrong about Jeremy being the killer. Unfortunately.

Thank you for sharing that Summer.

[SUMMER]

The way I am feeling about this case now, Cliff, is that if
Sheila was the murderer, then how Jeremy has kept his sanity
is a miracle in itself!
If Jeremy is the murderer, then the Psychological testing that he has
undergone some 27 times must be easy to fool! He says that he has never
been found to have Pathological personality traits.
Sometimes I still think a third party was involved - the "gun at the head" of
Ralph Bamber scenario, making him ask Jeremy to come to the Farm, etc.
I don't really want to believe that it was Sheila or Jeremy.

[SUMMER]

Thank you Grahame.

[smiffy]

Was it not Robert who was the main proponent of the wet suit theory.
There seem to be big question marks on when Robert first went into WHF after the murders. His mention of Cock moaning about the finger print dust suggests it was after the finger print people had been in whf.
This was in september.
We have King giving evidence that he collected the wet suit on the 8th september which could therefore be before Robert Boutflour visited the property. Hence there is no wet suit when he visits and thus his mind goes into overdrive.
Prior to this though , Ann and others had toured whf on many occasions and must have seen the wet suit and coupled with the shower head out of place fueled wild speculation and fed this to Robert.

[vidvic]

The way I am feeling about this case now, Cliff, is that if
Sheila was the murderer, then how Jeremy has kept his sanity
is a miracle in itself!
If Jeremy is the murderer, then the Psychological testing that he has
undergone some 27 times must be easy to fool! He says that he has never
been found to have Pathological personality traits.
Sometimes I still think a third party was involved - the "gun at the head" of
Ralph Bamber scenario, making him ask Jeremy to come to the Farm, etc.
I don't really want to believe that it was Sheila or Jeremy.

According the Roger Wilkes, Rivlin was quite down just before the trial, as "an eminent psychiatrist expressed his opinion that Jeremy exhibited several classic symptoms of the psychopath' and 'the genuine belief that he was completely innocent of any crime'. 'The doctor believed Jeremy to have killed his family.' (Page 245) -

[Horsey/CM9]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

[Roch]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

Well put Dave.  I'd be interested in Rivlin's current opinions, after all that has come out in the intervening years. 

[ngb1066]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

Well put Dave.  I'd be interested in Rivlin's current opinions, after all that has come out in the intervening years.

Geoffrey Rivlin QC is a judge now.  He has been supportive of Jeremy and remains so.  I believe the defence team were surprised at the trial verdicts. 

 

[Roch]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

Well put Dave.  I'd be interested in Rivlin's current opinions, after all that has come out in the intervening years.

Geoffrey Rivlin QC is a judge now.  He has been supportive of Jeremy and remains so.  I believe the defence team were surprised at the trial verdicts.

Interesting.  Sounds like if he did have any doubts, then they were dispelled.  I wonder if Wilkes book could be updated?  I've heard it was a well researched book.  Maybe it deserves a 2011 edition?

ngb - What do you know of Mr. Justice Drake?  Did he ever question the verdicts?

[ngb1066]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

Well put Dave.  I'd be interested in Rivlin's current opinions, after all that has come out in the intervening years.

Geoffrey Rivlin QC is a judge now.  He has been supportive of Jeremy and remains so.  I believe the defence team were surprised at the trial verdicts.

Interesting.  Sounds like if he did have any doubts, then they were dispelled.  I wonder if Wilkes book could be updated?  I've heard it was a well researched book.  Maybe it deserves a 2011 edition?

ngb - What do you know of Mr. Justice Drake?  Did he ever question the verdicts?

Mr Justice Drake did not question the verdicts to the best of my knowledge.  He did cooperate in answering some questions asked by the defence about the exhibits in the trial. 
 

[vidvic]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

Well put Dave.  I'd be interested in Rivlin's current opinions, after all that has come out in the intervening years.

Geoffrey Rivlin QC is a judge now.  He has been supportive of Jeremy and remains so.  I believe the defence team were surprised at the trial verdicts.

whoever Wilkes' source was from the defence team, didn't seem to share that view though? And there seems to be certain sides to Jeremy that Rivlin found distasteful. That's the impression you get. i.e, questioning the amount of money he was going to get from the papers if innocent, claiming it wasn't enough......

[ngb1066]

you say JB has never said he was found to have those symtoms, but we shall never know and Jb is hardly going to say "oh by the way ive been found to be a physcopath"

Well put Dave.  I'd be interested in Rivlin's current opinions, after all that has come out in the intervening years.

Geoffrey Rivlin QC is a judge now.  He has been supportive of Jeremy and remains so.  I believe the defence team were surprised at the trial verdicts.

whoever Wilkes' source was from the defence team, didn't seem to share that view though? And there seems to be certain sides to Jeremy that Rivlin found distasteful. That's the impression you get. i.e, questioning the amount of money he was going to get from the papers if innocent, claiming it wasn't enough......

I don't think Wilkes names his source, so it is hard to form a view on this.  From what I have seen both of the defence barristers were positive in their view of Jeremy.  I do not know about the people involved who worked for Kingsley Napley.   There does seem to be a consensus that Jeremy did not always give a good impression.  He seems to have come across as quite cocky when giving evidence.  He was confident that he was going to be acquitted and that no doubt came across.  He was only 24 years old and had no experience of the courts.  It must have been a daunting experience being on trial for five murders.