The Hyper-Reality Of Julie Mugford

[Rob_]

Distressed about what?

What were Nevill, June, Daniel & Nicholas doing while Sheila was getting more distressed?

I which you could be serious, you know what she was likely worrying about, as for the others it was the middle of the night so how about they were asleep?

[Adam]

I which you could be serious, you know what she was likely worrying about, as for the others it was the middle of the night so how about they were asleep?

Oh yes, the conversation about fostering. The only alive witness being Bamber. Who said she was non responsive.

So Sheila got dress for bed. But didn't go to bed. She spent several hours wandering around WHF getting more distressed.

Everyone else had already gone to bed & slept through it. Until something woke Nevill.

[guest29835]

Oh yes, the conversation about fostering. The only alive witness being Bamber. Who said she was non responsive.

So Sheila got dress for bed. But didn't go to bed. She spent several hours wandering around WHF getting more distressed.

Everyone else had already gone to bed & slept through it. Until something woke Nevill.

It is true that Jeremy was the only witness to that conversation, and I agree that this is an important thing to take into account because he could have made the whole thing up.

But, he can't have made it up entirely because there were other witnesses in the case who vouched for the general theme of such a discussion/kitchen table meeting.  Again, though, that could be what persuaded Jeremy in his own mind to invent the discussion, knowing others would back up its plausibility.

[Rob_]

Oh yes, the conversation about fostering. The only alive witness being Bamber. Who said she was non responsive.

So Sheila got dress for bed. But didn't go to bed. She spent several hours wandering around WHF getting more distressed.

Everyone else had already gone to bed & slept through it. Until something woke Nevill.

You say your scenario fits the crime scene, you have seen the photo of Sheila's bedroom now. I think most people would say her bed has not been slept in so over to you?

[Adam]

It is true that Jeremy was the only witness to that conversation, and I agree that this is an important thing to take into account because he could have made the whole thing up.

But, he can't have made it up entirely because there were other witnesses in the case who vouched for the general theme of such a discussion/kitchen table meeting.  Again, though, that could be what persuaded Jeremy in his own mind to invent the discussion, knowing others would back up its plausibility.

Who?

[guest29835]

You say your scenario fits the crime scene, you have seen the photo of Sheila's bedroom now. I think most people would say her bed has not been slept in so over to you?

I've always thought that the question of what Sheila was doing over the night of 6th./7th. is a big hole in the prosecution case.  It ties in with lots of different questions we have discussed on here.

Specifically in regard to your observation: schizophrenics are known to walk around aimlessly and stay up throughout the night, with irregular sleep patterns.  For instance, they may walk around a house or walk out into the garden (or grounds of a large property).

The fact the bed looks unslept in does not mean she did not sleep in it that night, but it does imply either:

(i). she did not sleep at all;
(ii). she slept elsewhere; or,
(iii). if she did sleep in the bed that night, she left the bed and either she put the bed clothes right herself and went to some effort to do so, or, if the killer was Jeremy, he did. 

Can we conclude anything?  I'm not sure.

When I noticed this myself some years ago, it brought me to the hypothesis that an 'Ideal Killer' or 'Perfect Killer' would have shot her first in the bed, before anybody else, then left her to kill the others, then returned and taken the body to whatever place he wanted to stage her suicide, then tidied the bedroom and landing forensically and deposited or hid the blooded sheets somewhere, or even washed them there and then, or put them in the wash, or whatever.  As JackieD once told me on here: "Too clever for Jeremy".  She thinks Jeremy is of average cognitive ability and could not plan through all the threads of something like this.

[Jane]

It is true that Jeremy was the only witness to that conversation, and I agree that this is an important thing to take into account because he could have made the whole thing up.

But, he can't have made it up entirely because there were other witnesses in the case who vouched for the general theme of such a discussion/kitchen table meeting.  Again, though, that could be what persuaded Jeremy in his own mind to invent the discussion, knowing others would back up its plausibility.

There is no other witness, but JB, for anything which happened at WHF after he went in for supper. The stage is his. He can say it how he wants it to be seen as playing out. From here, we can speculate over why he said whatever. We can say that "we'd" have said something other. But JB would have done what he thought would work. There were two phone calls. One from the farm secretary who said Nevill was short with her, and one from June's sister, who only noted that Sheila didn't say good night. I don't think JB mentioned either. He, effectively, narrated the whole thing.

[guest29835]

There is no other witness, but JB, for anything which happened at WHF after he went in for supper. The stage is his. He can say it how he wants it to be seen as playing out. From here, we can speculate over why he said whatever. We can say that "we'd" have said something other. But JB would have done what he thought would work. There were two phone calls. One from the farm secretary who said Nevill was short with her, and one from June's sister, who only noted that Sheila didn't say good night. I don't think JB mentioned either. He, effectively, narrated the whole thing.

Unfortunately, I think that causes us all a problem and the evidence against Jeremy is not, in my personal opinion, quite strong enough to compensate - including Julie's claim of a confession.  I'm just being honest in accepting that I don't know what happened, which is partly why I'm still here and not elsewhere discussing other things.

[Rob_]

I've always thought that the question of what Sheila was doing over the night of 6th./7th. is a big hole in the prosecution case.  It ties in with lots of different questions we have discussed on here.

Specifically in regard to your observation: schizophrenics are known to walk around aimlessly and stay up throughout the night, with irregular sleep patterns.  For instance, they may walk around a house or walk out into the garden (or grounds of a large property).

The fact the bed looks unslept in does not mean she did not sleep in it that night, but it does imply either:

(i). she did not sleep at all;
(ii). she slept elsewhere; or,
(iii). if she did sleep in the bed that night, she left the bed and either she put the bed clothes right herself and went to some effort to do so, or, if the killer was Jeremy, he did. 

Can we conclude anything?  I'm not sure.

When I noticed this myself some years ago, it brought me to the hypothesis that an 'Ideal Killer' or 'Perfect Killer' would have shot her first in the bed, before anybody else, then taken the body to whatever place he wanted to stage her suicide, then tidied the bedroom and landing forensically and deposited or hid the blooded sheets somewhere, or even washed them there and then, or put them in the wash, or whatever.  As JackieD once told me on here: "Too clever for Jeremy".  She thinks Jeremy is of average cognitive ability and could not plan through all the threads of something like this.

Sheila being shot while asleep in bed looks to me to be the only way that JB could have done this, but how does he get the body to the main bedroom without it being obvious? The Police and PV would have known instantly. Also why take her to the main bedroom this seems strange to me?

[Adam]

I've always thought that the question of what Sheila was doing over the night of 6th./7th. is a big hole in the prosecution case.  It ties in with lots of different questions we have discussed on here.

Specifically in regard to your observation: schizophrenics are known to walk around aimlessly and stay up throughout the night, with irregular sleep patterns.  For instance, they may walk around a house or walk out into the garden (or grounds of a large property).

The fact the bed looks unslept in does not mean she did not sleep in it that night, but it does imply either:

(i). she did not sleep at all;
(ii). she slept elsewhere; or,
(iii). if she did sleep in the bed that night, she left the bed and either she put the bed clothes right herself and went to some effort to do so, or, if the killer was Jeremy, he did. 

Can we conclude anything?  I'm not sure.

When I noticed this myself some years ago, it brought me to the hypothesis that an 'Ideal Killer' or 'Perfect Killer' would have shot her first in the bed, before anybody else, then left her to kill the others, then returned and taken the body to whatever place he wanted to stage her suicide, then tidied the bedroom and landing forensically and deposited or hid the blooded sheets somewhere, or even washed them there and then, or put them in the wash, or whatever.  As JackieD once told me on here: "Too clever for Jeremy".  She thinks Jeremy is of average cognitive ability and could not plan through all the threads of something like this.

Source please.

[Adam]

I've always thought that the question of what Sheila was doing over the night of 6th./7th. is a big hole in the prosecution case.  It ties in with lots of different questions we have discussed on here.

Specifically in regard to your observation: schizophrenics are known to walk around aimlessly and stay up throughout the night, with irregular sleep patterns.  For instance, they may walk around a house or walk out into the garden (or grounds of a large property).

The fact the bed looks unslept in does not mean she did not sleep in it that night, but it does imply either:

(i). she did not sleep at all;
(ii). she slept elsewhere; or,
(iii). if she did sleep in the bed that night, she left the bed and either she put the bed clothes right herself and went to some effort to do so, or, if the killer was Jeremy, he did. 

Can we conclude anything?  I'm not sure.

When I noticed this myself some years ago, it brought me to the hypothesis that an 'Ideal Killer' or 'Perfect Killer' would have shot her first in the bed, before anybody else, then left her to kill the others, then returned and taken the body to whatever place he wanted to stage her suicide, then tidied the bedroom and landing forensically and deposited or hid the blooded sheets somewhere, or even washed them there and then, or put them in the wash, or whatever.  As JackieD once told me on here: "Too clever for Jeremy".  She thinks Jeremy is of average cognitive ability and could not plan through all the threads of something like this.

Impossible to tell.

[guest29835]

Sheila being shot while asleep in bed looks to me to be the only way that JB could have done this, but how does he get the body to the main bedroom without it being obvious? The Police and PV would have know instantly. Also why take her to the main bedroom this seems strange to me?

Yes.  How I came up with the theory is that I was convinced in my own head that Jeremy is factually guilty.  To an extent, that default position is still with me now.  I'm inclined to think he did do it.  But I was sat there racking my brain trying to figure out how he did it. 

The logistics of it - getting to and from the farmhouse.

Subduing Sheila and the risk of Sheila perambulating around.

There just seemed to be so many problems.

Together with this, I've always been intrigued by the photo of Sheila's bedroom and wondered if this was a 'dog that didn't bark' clue.

I then re-thought the whole thing and came up with a way that he could have done it, had he planned it through properly.  I've not gone over how I think he could have gone to and from the farmhouse, but in regard to Sheila, ideally he would kill her first while she is still in bed, then he would leave her and kill the rest.  Then he would return and clean up and move her.

The reason the detectives don't notice this is, quite simply, because he does an excellent job of cleaning-up the relevant area, which is why it looks so neat.  No doubt he does leave small clues, but they are overlooked.

As for why he leaves her in the main bedroom, my explanation for that is simply that he knows he is leaving blood everywhere he goes and the main bedroom is nearest - it's just across the landing - so it's more practical to leave Sheila there than risk carrying her to the twins' bedroom.  It also means any residual blood trail can be explained as spatter.

I don't believe this is how he did it, though.

[Jane]

Unfortunately, I think that causes us all a problem and the evidence against Jeremy is not, in my personal opinion, quite strong enough to compensate - including Julie's claim of a confession.  I'm just being honest in accepting that I don't know what happened, which is partly why I'm still here and not elsewhere discussing other things.

None of us do. Yonks back there was a thread asking for posters to put forward what they believed happened. I think every poster said something different. Who knows, ONE of them may have been correct. As for the trial, he was convicted more on a balance of probabilities, than on one point in particular.

[Adam]

I've always thought that the question of what Sheila was doing over the night of 6th./7th. is a big hole in the prosecution case.  It ties in with lots of different questions we have discussed on here.

Specifically in regard to your observation: schizophrenics are known to walk around aimlessly and stay up throughout the night, with irregular sleep patterns.  For instance, they may walk around a house or walk out into the garden (or grounds of a large property).

The fact the bed looks unslept in does not mean she did not sleep in it that night, but it does imply either:

(i). she did not sleep at all;
(ii). she slept elsewhere; or,
(iii). if she did sleep in the bed that night, she left the bed and either she put the bed clothes right herself and went to some effort to do so, or, if the killer was Jeremy, he did. 

Can we conclude anything?  I'm not sure.

When I noticed this myself some years ago, it brought me to the hypothesis that an 'Ideal Killer' or 'Perfect Killer' would have shot her first in the bed, before anybody else, then left her to kill the others, then returned and taken the body to whatever place he wanted to stage her suicide, then tidied the bedroom and landing forensically and deposited or hid the blooded sheets somewhere, or even washed them there and then, or put them in the wash, or whatever.  As JackieD once told me on here: "Too clever for Jeremy".  She thinks Jeremy is of average cognitive ability and could not plan through all the threads of something like this.

Who said he did?

[Adam]

Sheila being shot while asleep in bed looks to me to be the only way that JB could have done this, but how does he get the body to the main bedroom without it being obvious? The Police and PV would have known instantly. Also why take her to the main bedroom this seems strange to me?

Feel free to vote for this in yesterdays poll. Although there are 7 other options.

Don't know people think it's such a big problem, Bamber getting Sheila 20 yards from her bed. Although as supporters have said, she may have already been up.