Sequence of events surrounding the silencer.

[killingeve]

He collects the second of two silencers on conflicting dates [evening of the 12th August 1985], but he had already collected a silencer from the scene on the first morning of the police investigation (7th August 1985) - both of these silencers were subsequently merged together as though they were the same items!

Why would he have collected one on 7th Aug?  Collected from where?  Who did he hand it to?  He wasn't a scene of crime officer and it didn't fall within his remit to go around collecting exhibits.  He only spent a little time at the scene of crime and spent most of the 7th at Bamber's cottage. 

[mike tesko]

I have not faked any witness statement or document which / that confirms, that there were / was / is official confirmation that the police, the lab' experts, and the relatives merged the existence of 'two parker hale silencers', into 'ONE' so that blood associated with / to one of them, and red paint associated with the other, came to be presented, as though the blood group evidence and the red paint particle evidence belonged to one parker hale silencer ['alone']

`DS Jones' returned to the farmhouse [his second visit to the crime scene on that first morning of the police investigation] and it was then that he seized, found, or took possession of 'Anthony Pargeters' 17 baffled parker hale silencer which originally boasted the exhibit reference of 'SBJ/1'. This particular parker hale silencer [belonging to Pargeter] was half an inch longer than the other [Bamber owned] parker hale silencer, which only had 14 internalysed baffle plates, and the length of which, in total from  the end to the bottom was [only] 6 inches. There were / are significant differences internally of each parker hale silencer - the 'Pargeter silencer' [ collected by 'DS Jones' at the scene on his second attendance  there, on the 7th August 1985] was purchased in 1980, by 'Anthony Pargeter. At 'this time' only 17 internal baffle plated parker hale silencers were produced by the company, and on sale to members of the public. One other feature worth noting, was that / is that this particular version of a parker hale silencer during this period (1980 - the beginning of 'November 1984'] the length of this product` was 'six and a half inches'.

In contrast, the `other parker hale silencer` which was `recovered from the crime scene` by 'David Boutflour' on the '10th August 1985', was `a newer upgraded model of the product`, it having been `redesigned internally` [at the manufacturing stage] to 'only have 14 baffle plates' and which `the total length of it`, as measured from one end to the other, being only 'six inches', long.

There exists evidence to confirm that there were / are / and is, two completely different parker hale silencers, that were `seized`, `found`, or `taken possession of`, by `two completely different persons` ['Ds Jones' and `David Boutflour'] the first of which ['SBJ/1'!] was `seized at white house farm`, on `the first morning of the police investigation` ['7th August 1985']. Whereas, `the other silencer` [`DB/1'] was `independantly recovered from the crime scene` by 'David Boutflour', `three days later`, on the '10th August 1985'. This 'particular parker hale silencer', had 'far less internal baffle plates', and 'was half an inch shorter in length` [six inches, only] as `compared` to `the other one. [`SBJ/1']..

[killingeve]

I have not faked any witness statement or document which / that confirms, that there were / was / is official confirmation that the police, the lab' experts, and the relatives merged the existence of 'two parker hale silencers', into 'ONE' so that blood associated with / to one of them, and red paint associated with the other, came to be presented, as though the blood group evidence and the red paint particle evidence belonged to one parker hale silencer ['alone']

`DS Jones' returned to the farmhouse [his second visit to the crime scene on that first morning of the police investigation] and it was then that he seized, found, or took possession of 'Anthony Pargeters' 17 baffled parker hale silencer which originally boasted the exhibit reference of 'SBJ/1'. This particular parker hale silencer [belonging to Pargeter] was half an inch longer than the other [Bamber owned] parker hale silencer, which only had 14 internalysed baffle plates, and the length of which, in total from  the end to the bottom was [only] 6 inches. There were / are significant differences internally of each parker hale silencer - the 'Pargeter silencer' [ collected by 'DS Jones' at the scene on his second attendance  there, on the 7th August 1985] was purchased in 1980, by 'Anthony Pargeter. At 'this time' only 17 internal baffle plated parker hale silencers were produced by the company, and on sale to members of the public. One other feature worth noting, was that / is that this particular version of a parker hale silencer during this period (1980 - the beginning of 'November 1984'] the length of this product` was 'six and a half inches'.

In contrast, the `other parker hale silencer` which was `recovered from the crime scene` by 'David Boutflour' on the '10th August 1985', was `a newer upgraded model of the product`, it having been `redesigned internally` [at the manufacturing stage] to 'only have 14 baffle plates' and which `the total length of it`, as measured from one end to the other, being only 'six inches', long.

There exists evidence to confirm that there were / are / and is, two completely different parker hale silencers, that were `seized`, `found`, or `taken possession of`, by `two completely different persons` ['Ds Jones' and `David Boutflour'] the first of which ['SBJ/1'!] was `seized at white house farm`, on `the first morning of the police investigation` ['7th August 1985']. Whereas, `the other silencer` [`DB/1'] was `independantly recovered from the crime scene` by 'David Boutflour', `three days later`, on the '10th August 1985'. This 'particular parker hale silencer', had 'far less internal baffle plates', and 'was half an inch shorter in length` [six inches, only] as `compared` to `the other one. [`SBJ/1']..

Mike, what in your opinion would be the ojective of the above? 

[David1819]

This Forum had some cracking posters around that time, and Smiffy was one of them.  It's worth hunting round the Forum for his posts, I think.

Indeed.

[mike tesko]

Why would he have collected one on 7th Aug?  Collected from where?  Who did he hand it to?  He wasn't a scene of crime officer and it didn't fall within his remit to go around collecting exhibits.  He only spent a little time at the scene of crime and spent most of the 7th at Bamber's cottage.

[`YOU'] Why would he have collected one on 7th Aug?

[`ME'] because whilst at 'Jeremy Bambers' cottage [9 Head Street, Goldhanger] `Jeremy' mentioned to 'DS Jones' and 'DC Clark' that there existed a silencer, telescopic site, and hundreds of rounds of Eley. 22 subsonic hollow point ammunition belonging to the. 22 semi-automatic [Anshuzt make] rifle when purchased in November 1984. As a result, and whilst 'DC Clark' continued to take a witness statement from 'Jeremy' 'DS Jones' left the cottage and returned to the crime scene intent on searching for, and 'where possible', to 'find and locate' the 'said accessories spoken about' by 'Jeremy', beforehand. A 'PC' had been tasked by 'senior officers' at the scene to keep 'a log' of 'everyone entering', or 'leaving the premises'. By reference to the contents of that log, it confirms that 'DS Jones' returned to the crime scene 'at 11.15am', that particular morning. That log, also contains evidence, that upon and during his return to the crime scene, that he left and entered the farmhouse, in the company of a senior officer, both of whom did so whilst engaged in a 'Informative exercise'[ police at the scene, 'had been' and 'were in the process' of 'resetting the position of the bodies' of 'the three adult victims']. THIS came about, because of an accident, whereby 'Sheila Caffell' was 'shot' and 'killed' during a training exercise, which involved various trainee firearm officers, practicing removal of a firearm from the body of a victim who had committed suicide. During this training exercise, police engaged in this part of the operation/exercise, used at least two different. 22 calibre rifles to carry out the [.22 semi-automatic (Anshuzt) rifle`], and `the .22 bolt action ('Brno'model) rifle]. It remains 'a distinct possibility' , that 'a third. 22 air rifle' ['BSA' model] was also used to carry out this exercise. Such was the confusion at the scene from the initial entry to the accidental shooting by a firearm officer of 'Sheila Caffell' that proper safety checks did not get performed, with regards to whether or not, one or other of each of these. 22 weapons, could be, or were still loaded with at least, 'One'  live round of '. 22 ammunition'...

'DS Jones' had returned to the scene, to withdraw any item of evidential value, which was possible to undermine the 'outcome' of 'the tragedy', as set or arranged by 'senior officers' at the scene. On this occasion, it is well documented that 'DS Jones' took four separate items of evidential value from the crime scene on and during his second visit on the first morning of tge police investigation into these/those five deaths..   

I can expand further, if required, or necessary..

[David1819]

At trial Ed Lawson for the defence made reference to the little known phenomenon referred to as draw-back (blood entering the silencer from a contact gunshot wound) by referring to an article by US pathologists Allen and Stephens (1983) who said at the time it was poorly understood.

Also at trial Malcolm Fletcher (HO ballistics) told the court -

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

And yet David1819 wants us to believe that Mrs Eaton, a farmer, had the wherewithal to contaminate the silencer with diluted period blood!

Anyone with a pair of hands can unscrew a silencer and contaminate the baffles inside.

Moreover would you care to explain -

The muzzle imprints on Sheila's chin being contact wounds without the silencer fitted.

No trace of Nicholas Caffell inside the silencer despite suffering three contact wounds in an area most commonly associated with backspatter.

[killingeve]

Anyone with a pair of hands can unscrew a silencer and contaminate the baffles inside.

I don't doubt that.  But 'drawback aka as blowback' is a complex phenomenon where the opposite of what would ordinarily be expected occurs ie gases causing blood to travel towards the line of fire.  The idea Mrs Eaton woud have such knowledge is laughable! 

Moreover would you care to explain -

The muzzle imprints on Sheila's chin being contact wounds without the silencer fitted.

What has this got to do with the above?  You're conflating two entirely different propostions: one how you believe the silencer was contaminated and two that the silencer wasn't used.

In any event the expert evidence from the defence in this regard hasn't been challenged by the prosecution.

No trace of Nicholas Caffell inside the silencer despite suffering three contact wounds in an area most commonly associated with backspatter.

Hair can impede flight and you also need to factor in an immature skull.

[killingeve]

[`YOU'] Why would he have collected one on 7th Aug?

[`ME'] because whilst at 'Jeremy Bambers' cottage [9 Head Street, Goldhanger] `Jeremy' mentioned to 'DS Jones' and 'DC Clark' that there existed a silencer, telescopic site, and hundreds of rounds of Eley. 22 subsonic hollow point ammunition belonging to the. 22 semi-automatic [Anshuzt make] rifle when purchased in November 1984. As a result, and whilst 'DC Clark' continued to take a witness statement from 'Jeremy' 'DS Jones' left the cottage and returned to the crime scene intent on searching for, and 'where possible', to 'find and locate' the 'said accessories spoken about' by 'Jeremy', beforehand. A 'PC' had been tasked by 'senior officers' at the scene to keep 'a log' of 'everyone entering', or 'leaving the premises'. By reference to the contents of that log, it confirms that 'DS Jones' returned to the crime scene 'at 11.15am', that particular morning. That log, also contains evidence, that upon and during his return to the crime scene, that he left and entered the farmhouse, in the company of a senior officer, both of whom did so whilst engaged in a 'Informative exercise'[ police at the scene, 'had been' and 'were in the process' of 'resetting the position of the bodies' of 'the three adult victims']. THIS came about, because of an accident, whereby 'Sheila Caffell' was 'shot' and 'killed' during a training exercise, which involved various trainee firearm officers, practicing removal of a firearm from the body of a victim who had committed suicide. During this training exercise, police engaged in this part of the operation/exercise, used at least two different. 22 calibre rifles to carry out the [.22 semi-automatic (Anshuzt) rifle`], and `the .22 bolt action ('Brno'model) rifle]. It remains 'a distinct possibility' , that 'a third. 22 air rifle' ['BSA' model] was also used to carry out this exercise. Such was the confusion at the scene from the initial entry to the accidental shooting by a firearm officer of 'Sheila Caffell' that proper safety checks did not get performed, with regards to whether or not, one or other of each of these. 22 weapons, could be, or were still loaded with at least, 'One'  live round of '. 22 ammunition'...

'DS Jones' had returned to the scene, to withdraw any item of evidential value, which was possible to undermine the 'outcome' of 'the tragedy', as set or arranged by 'senior officers' at the scene. On this occasion, it is well documented that 'DS Jones' took four separate items of evidential value from the crime scene on and during his second visit on the first morning of tge police investigation into these/those five deaths..   

I can expand further, if required, or necessary..

Cheers Mike.

I don't believe Bamber initiated any conversation with anyone re the silencer/scope/sights.  Mrs Eaton was in contact with Anthony Pargeter on 7th Aug and he was the first to initiate such conversations.  As a result Bamber was asked to complete a second witness statement on 8th August re the silencer/scope/sights. 

Why do you believe the police needed two silencers and all the rest that goes with the exhibit labels etc in order to frame Bamber?  Why would one be insufficient ie the one exhibited at trial said to contain blood matching Sheila's groups and paint matching the Aga?

[Jane]

Cheers Mike.

I don't believe Bamber initiated any conversation with anyone re the silencer/scope/sights.  Mrs Eaton was in contact with Anthony Pargeter on 7th Aug and he was the first to initiate such conversations.  As a result Bamber was asked to complete a second witness statement on 8th August re the silencer/scope/sights. 

Why do you believe the police needed two silencers and all the rest that goes with the exhibit labels etc in order to frame Bamber?  Why would one be insufficient ie the one exhibited at trial said to contain blood matching Sheila's groups and paint matching the Aga?

Well, here's the thing, isn't it? Unless either/both DS Jones and DC Clarke completed witness statements which included the claim that JB had mentioned...................OR passed such information on to other parties -and why would they?- it seems we have yet another situation in which JB is the only conveyor of the information, the reliability of which may be said to be suspect.

[Adam]

Anyone with a pair of hands can unscrew a silencer and contaminate the baffles inside.

Moreover would you care to explain -

The muzzle imprints on Sheila's chin being contact wounds without the silencer fitted.

No trace of Nicholas Caffell inside the silencer despite suffering three contact wounds in an area most commonly associated with backspatter.

Says who. One expert who tested on pigs skin.

[Adam]

Anyone with a pair of hands can unscrew a silencer and contaminate the baffles inside.

Moreover would you care to explain -

The muzzle imprints on Sheila's chin being contact wounds without the silencer fitted.

No trace of Nicholas Caffell inside the silencer despite suffering three contact wounds in an area most commonly associated with backspatter.

You previously said Sheila was shot in an area of high blood flow. Which is correct. Contact shots.

Daniel & Nicholas were shot in the skull. No one has ever suggested there could be back spatter.

[Adam]

It looks like David is not going to address any of the posts. Although he created the thread.

Except to say the blood in the bucket of water relates to the blood on the kitchen window sill. Then not say how.

Still waiting.

As David kept saying to CC.

[David1819]

I don't doubt that.  But 'drawback aka as blowback' is a complex phenomenon where the opposite of what would ordinarily be expected occurs ie gases causing blood to travel towards the line of fire.  The idea Mrs Eaton woud have such knowledge is laughable! 

The idea that you would need scientific knowledge to put something inside a silencer is laughable. Planting or manufacturing evidence is criminal and criminals take risks.

What has this got to do with the above?  You're conflating two entirely different propostions: one how you believe the silencer was contaminated and two that the silencer wasn't used.

If the silencer was not used then the blood is a result of deliberate contamination. They are both fundamentally linked.

In any event the expert evidence from the defence in this regard hasn't been challenged by the prosecution.

I am asking you to challenge it. 

Hair can impede flight and you also need to factor in an immature skull.

That brings up another point as to why there is no bone fragments in the silencer also. Nicholas caffel suffered three contact wounds to the head.

"Test shots on live pigs destined for slaughter showed that bone particles are a feature of backspatter from close-range shots to heads. Contamination of nearby surfaces by bone fragments and bone-plus-bullet fragments, as well as other organic debris, appears to be quite heavy."
"Detection of Bone and Bone-Plus-Bullet Particles in Backspatter from Close-Range Shots to Heads," Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 36, No. 6, 1991, pp. 1745-1752,

[Adam]

AE would need to know -

Is Bamber innocent.

Sheila's arm lenght.

The rifle lenght with silencer.

Could Sheila have shot herself with the silencer attached.

What back splatter is.

Who of the 5 deceased received contact shots.

What locations would contact shots need to be to produce back splatter.

Where were the contact shots on the 5 deceased.

Is there any other forensic evidence against Sheila.

Was there a silencer next to Sheila.

How to realistically put blood into a silencer.

Where was Sheila's blood to insert into a silencer.

Did the rifle barrell already have blood on/in.

Did the crime scene photos show an unscratched aga.

How to realistically scratch the aga.

Had the police already checked all silencers at WHF.

The chance of this one piece of framed evidence getting a conviction.

The punishment if caught doing this.

Confidence the other relatives that none would succumb to police pressure.

Sheila's blood group.

The blood group of each other.

----------

This had to be found out very quickly. Providing AE had the idea & decided to go ahead.

David has also ignored this.

[Adam]

The idea that you would need scientific knowledge to put something inside a silencer is laughable. Planting or manufacturing evidence is criminal and criminals take risks.

If the silencer was not used then the blood is a result of deliberate contamination. They are both fundamentally linked.


I am asking you to challenge it. 

That brings up another point as to why there is no bone fragments in the silencer also. Nicholas caffel suffered three contact wounds to the head.

[i]"Test shots on live pigs destined for slaughter showed that bone particles are a feature of backspatter from close-range shots to heads. Contamination of nearby surfaces by bone fragments and bone-plus-bullet fragments, as well as other organic debris, appears to be quite heavy."
[/i]"Detection of Bone and Bone-Plus-Bullet Particles in Backspatter from Close-Range Shots to Heads," Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 36, No. 6, 1991, pp. 1745-1752,

Did they use a rifle for shooting rabbits?