Industrial Frame Department

[guest29835]

Not that I necessarily believe there was an 'industrial frame', but if Jeremy is innocent then evidence has been concealed.  People who are sceptical about the concept of an extensive and co-ordinated but hidden conspiracy should consider the Post Office Horizon scandal, which has been topical recently in the news:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

[lookout]

An absolutely shocking state of affairs. Unforgiveable blame.

[Jane]

Not that I necessarily believe there was an 'industrial frame', but if Jeremy is innocent then evidence has been concealed.  People who are sceptical about the concept of an extensive and co-ordinated but hidden conspiracy should consider the Post Office Horizon scandal, which has been topical recently in the news:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

Despicable. Nothing less. I don't think it can be compared with the JB case, though, as it appeared that the more of these poor, wrongly accused civil servants, were prosecuted, the less human they became. Rather each became fodder to verify the rightness of the previous conviction.

[JackieD]

Not that I necessarily believe there was an 'industrial frame', but if Jeremy is innocent then evidence has been concealed.  People who are sceptical about the concept of an extensive and co-ordinated but hidden conspiracy should consider the Post Office Horizon scandal, which has been topical recently in the news:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

Frightening

[Roch]

Despicable. Nothing less. I don't think it can be compared with the JB case, though, as it appeared that the more of these poor, wrongly accused civil servants, were prosecuted, the less human they became. Rather each became fodder to verify the rightness of the previous conviction.

I must admit Jane.. I do like your new forum moniker...

'Judge Jane' 

[Jane]

I must admit Jane.. I do like your knew forum moniker...

'Judge Jane' 

I'm so glad, Roch 

[guest29835]

Despicable. Nothing less. I don't think it can be compared with the JB case, though, as it appeared that the more of these poor, wrongly accused civil servants, were prosecuted, the less human they became. Rather each became fodder to verify the rightness of the previous conviction.

I totally accept it is an apples and oranges comparison, but wouldn't you accept that scandals like this serve as a sobering reminder to us that organised wrong-doing on the part of trusted bodies does take place and is covered-up? 

I do think that if Essex Police have been doing wrong, it will be because they thought Jeremy to be guilty and acted on that basis (an easier to trap to fall into than some may think).  However, one shocking factor in the Post Office Horizon scandal is that it would appear that people within the Post Office management knew or should have known their evidence was fundamentally flawed and wrong.  That doesn't necessarily mean they knew they were prosecuting innocent people, but it comes awfully close to that.  Police and prosecutorial abuses and wrong-doing are on a spectrum.

[Jane]

I totally accept it is an apples and oranges comparison, but wouldn't you accept that scandals like this serve as a sobering reminder to us that organised wrong-doing on the part of trusted bodies does take place and is covered-up? 

I do think that if Essex Police have been doing wrong, it will be because they thought Jeremy to be guilty and acted on that basis (an easier to trap to fall into than some may think).  However, one shocking factor in the Post Office Horizon scandal is that it would appear that people within the Post Office management knew or should have known their evidence was fundamentally flawed and wrong.  That doesn't necessarily mean they knew they were prosecuting innocent people, but it comes awfully close to that.  Police and prosecutorial abuses and wrong-doing are on a spectrum.

I most certainly do, but I also remain aware that because despicable things happen sometimes, they don't happen every time. Having said that, I simply don't know how reparation can EVER be made to those whose lives have been ruined by this appalling scandal.

I believe, emphatically, that some of those things believed to have been wrongly done by Essex Police, lay at JB's feet. Had he not been standing beside them, giving them chapter and verse on Sheila's life history -to put it another way, leading them up the wrong path- things may have been done entirely differently.

[Bubo bubo]

Members are aware much of my narrative points to an industrial frame for some reason. I accept the principle of so called 'Noble cause corruption' but there is nothing noble in it at all. It can be used as a 'get out' for more serious misdemeanours.

The level of evidence manipulation in this case is enormous. I think they were covering up something more serious. I will not mention all the various points I have outlined but think that the burning of evidence on the day screams cover up, rather than 'Noble Cause'.

Remember that in many cases from Watergate onwards it has often been the case, that it is not the original wrong doing which brings the house down but the coverup.

In the same way that it is said that all murderers make mistakes that lead to their downfall, the same is true for those engaged in coverups.

I have concentrated on looking for flaws in the given evidence which point to a coverup. Members can decide whether I have found such evidence. I have a list of many items I have put forward to back my claims.

This case is not yet beyond the point where the Crown's case is settled.

[JackieD]

I most certainly do, but I also remain aware that because despicable things happen sometimes, they don't happen every time. Having said that, I simply don't know how reparation can EVER be made to those whose lives have been ruined by this appalling scandal.

I believe, emphatically, that some of those things believed to have been wrongly done by Essex Police, lay at JB's feet. Had he not been standing beside them, giving them chapter and verse on Sheila's life history -to put it another way, leading them up the wrong path- things may have been done entirely differently.

Absolute bollocks as usual. You haven’t got a clue

[guest7363]

Absolute bollocks as usual. You haven’t got a clue

Im sure QC will want this thread splitting again?  Your ruining a good debate as usual.

[guest29835]

Members are aware much of my narrative points to an industrial frame for some reason. I accept the principle of so called 'Noble cause corruption' but there is nothing noble in it at all. It can be used as a 'get out' for more serious misdemeanours.

The level of evidence manipulation in this case is enormous. I think they were covering up something more serious. I will not mention all the various points I have outlined but think that the burning of evidence on the day screams cover up, rather than 'Noble Cause'.

Remember that in many cases from Watergate onwards it has often been the case, that it is not the original wrong doing which brings the house down but the coverup.

In the same way that it is said that all murderers make mistakes that lead to their downfall, the same is true for those engaged in coverups.

I have concentrated on looking for flaws in the given evidence which point to a coverup. Members can decide whether I have found such evidence. I have a list of many items I have put forward to back my claims.

This case is not yet beyond the point where the Crown's case is settled.

Exactly.  My point in starting the thread was to emphasise that an industrial frame cannot be dismissed in concept.  Some people try to, and come on here pouring scorn on it as far-fetched, but it isn't.  The Post Office scandal shows that these things happen.

[guest7363]

An absolutely shocking state of affairs. Unforgiveable blame.

I agree Lookout,

Following the convictions some of these former postmasters went to prison, were shunned by their communities, and struggled to secure work. Some lost their homes and even failed to get insurance owing to their convictions. Some have since died.

[JackieD]

Members are aware much of my narrative points to an industrial frame for some reason. I accept the principle of so called 'Noble cause corruption' but there is nothing noble in it at all. It can be used as a 'get out' for more serious misdemeanours.

The level of evidence manipulation in this case is enormous. I think they were covering up something more serious. I will not mention all the various points I have outlined but think that the burning of evidence on the day screams cover up, rather than 'Noble Cause'.

Remember that in many cases from Watergate onwards it has often been the case, that it is not the original wrong doing which brings the house down but the coverup.

In the same way that it is said that all murderers make mistakes that lead to their downfall, the same is true for those engaged in coverups.

I have concentrated on looking for flaws in the given evidence which point to a coverup. Members can decide whether I have found such evidence. I have a list of many items I have put forward to back my claims.

This case is not yet beyond the point where the Crown's case is settled.

Brilliant post

[JackieD]

Exactly.  My point in starting the thread was to emphasise that an industrial frame cannot be dismissed in concept.  Some people try to, and come on here pouring scorn on it as far-fetched, but it isn't.  The Post Office scandal shows that these things happen.

Totally agree