Author Topic: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.  (Read 3948 times)

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Offline Adam

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From Roger Wilkes:

Arlidge moved on to the evidence of the soldier, James Richards, who shared digs with Julie Mugford and had given evidence about Jeremy saying he hated his parents.

Jeremy denied saying this, but agreed it was the sort of thing that young people might say when complaining about their parents.

Jeremy’s voice had now dropped to a whisper, and both the judge and Geoffrey Rivlin had to ask him to speak up so that the jury could hear.

The judge was particularly anxious to hear more from Jeremy on the subject. Why should James Richards come to court and swear that Jeremy had said, with vehemence, ‘I hate my f..king parents’? The judge’s intervention seemed to silence Jeremy Bamber. ‘He said that you said it two or three times,’ the judge reminded him. ‘That is what he said,’ Jeremy agreed. Mr Justice Drake was not satisfied. ‘Can you explain to the jury why you think that man should come along and give that evidence to this court if it is not true?’ Jeremy paused. ‘I can only surmise, my lord, that people’s recollections of such events have been changed because of the way I have been portrayed in the newspapers, because he is a friend of Julie’s, and he doesn’t know me that well. Really, I don’t know the reasons why people do this. I wish I did,’ he added. In fact, Jeremy agreed with Anthony Arlidge that everyone who had been asked about him had lied.

‘Arlidge picked up the point that, throughout his evidence, Jeremy had indicated that certain witnesses were lying about their conversations with him, or their recollections of those conversations. Speaking of his uncle, Robert Boutflour, Jeremy said it was ‘very dangerous’ to guess at why he might not be telling the truth. As for James Richards, and the conversation about hating his parents, he was simply mistaken. The conversation had happened long before, and Richards had been influenced by the charges against him and the adverse publicity. The judge tried to short-circuit the point. ‘You think that the allegations and publicity against you have affected them?’ ‘Well, I’m sure it has,’ Jeremy replied. The judge asked if he had any comment on the other witnesses. Jeremy said he thought there were only two people who were actually lying: Julie Mugford – who had just made up her story – and Robert Boutflour.

With that, Anthony Arlidge proceeded with his questions. At length he came to the night of the murders, and the episode in which Jeremy had taken the loaded .22 Anschutz to shoot some rabbits. On his return, and not having fired a shot, he left it in the kitchen.

A dangerous thing to do? suggested Arlidge.
Yes, Jeremy agreed, and he now wished he hadn’t done it.
‘Just think about it for a minute. How long do you think it would have taken you to carry that gun and that magazine and put them in the den and gone out the back door?’
‘Yes,’ Jeremy replied quietly, ‘I wish I had done it now.’
‘How long would it have taken you?’
‘Well, minutes really. Seconds. Not very long, minutes.’
‘Seconds?’ ‘Well.’
Arlidge sensed his quarry tiring. ‘Thirty seconds, you could have done it, couldn’t you?’ The answer was little more than a mumble.
‘Maybe I could have done it, yes.’ Then a pause. ‘I was being lackadaisical,’ he added, as if to himself.
‘Pardon?’ said Arlidge, ‘You were being lackadaisical?’ Silence. ‘You are whispering now,’ observed the judge.
“Sorry,’ murmured Jeremy Bamber.
‘Everything plays on . . . hangs on every word, my lord.’ ‘You were reducing your answer to a whisper,’ the judge repeated.
‘It was something to myself, my lord.’ Arlidge pressed home. ‘You said, “I was being lackadaisical,” didn’t you?’ No answer. ‘Didn’t you?’
‘That is what I said to myself, yes.’
But Jeremy’s original explanation for leaving the loaded gun lying around was that he was in a hurry to get back to the field for the combine. Jeremy agreed he was in a hurry, adding that he still should have put the weapon back in the gun cupboard.
‘But I didn’t know what was going to happen, did I?’
‘You are not telling the truth about it, are you?’
‘That,’ Jeremy Bamber replied softly, ‘is what you have got to try and establish.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 03:18:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2021, 04:56:PM »
'both the judge and Geoffrey Rivlin had to ask him to speak up so that the jury could hear.'

----------

Seems that Bamber had lost confidence in himself.

It's alright talking to a couple of policemen outside WHF & insinuating Sheila. Then being flippant in police interviews. However being confident in lies in a court room is another matter.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2021, 04:59:PM »
The books available on this case are useful in presenting a chronology, gathering facts and providing possible leads for further serious research, but what they say must never be relied on in its own right.

We must always remember that they are secondary source material and give us information through the lens of the author's interpretation.  Even the simple reporting of facts can take on a dubious or questionable quality, because even non-fiction authors do make things up in the belief (probably justified) that hardly anybody will check and those that do will not be listened to.

Online Rob_

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2021, 05:23:PM »
Adam can you point me please to where the jury were shown the photograph of the carved inscription on the door in the twins bedroom saying “I hate this place”

Online Rob_

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2021, 05:43:PM »
Paul Osborne, who ran a Colchester snooker club called Qs, said in a written statement that he knew Jeremy as a pleasant, polite and straightforward person. Osborne added that he seemed to work hard, and enjoyed a good relationship with his family. Charles Lapridge, who sold the Bambers some machinery for the farm, described Jeremy as easy to deal with, and that Jeremy had got on well with his father. He’d never caught whiff of any troubles between Jeremy and the family when he visited the farm. The housekeeper at White House Farm, Jean Bouttell, had worked for the Bambers for twenty years and had never heard Jeremy say anything nasty about his family. A Colchester chartered surveyor, Richard Buck, said Jeremy was a straightforward sort of person. ‘Out of his family, I found it most easy to deal with him.’ The landlord of the Chequers in Goldhanger, described Jeremy as a model customer.

Did any of these people give evidence?

Offline JackieD

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2021, 05:55:PM »
Paul Osborne, who ran a Colchester snooker club called Qs, said in a written statement that he knew Jeremy as a pleasant, polite and straightforward person. Osborne added that he seemed to work hard, and enjoyed a good relationship with his family. Charles Lapridge, who sold the Bambers some machinery for the farm, described Jeremy as easy to deal with, and that Jeremy had got on well with his father. He’d never caught whiff of any troubles between Jeremy and the family when he visited the farm. The housekeeper at White House Farm, Jean Bouttell, had worked for the Bambers for twenty years and had never heard Jeremy say anything nasty about his family. A Colchester chartered surveyor, Richard Buck, said Jeremy was a straightforward sort of person. ‘Out of his family, I found it most easy to deal with him.’ The landlord of the Chequers in Goldhanger, described Jeremy as a model customer.

Did any of these people give evidence?


Shocking Rob
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2021, 06:09:PM »
Paul Osborne, who ran a Colchester snooker club called Qs, said in a written statement that he knew Jeremy as a pleasant, polite and straightforward person. Osborne added that he seemed to work hard, and enjoyed a good relationship with his family. Charles Lapridge, who sold the Bambers some machinery for the farm, described Jeremy as easy to deal with, and that Jeremy had got on well with his father. He’d never caught whiff of any troubles between Jeremy and the family when he visited the farm. The housekeeper at White House Farm, Jean Bouttell, had worked for the Bambers for twenty years and had never heard Jeremy say anything nasty about his family. A Colchester chartered surveyor, Richard Buck, said Jeremy was a straightforward sort of person. ‘Out of his family, I found it most easy to deal with him.’ The landlord of the Chequers in Goldhanger, described Jeremy as a model customer.

Did any of these people give evidence?

Paul Osborne did.  Off-hand, I can't recall about the others.

The significant one is Jean Bouttell.  Barbara Wilson was up close to the business matters of the family.  Jeremy was still young and not yet in sync with the lifestyle of his parents and their aspirations for him.  He was bound to cause tensions and Nevill had Barbara as a sounding board.

Jean saw things more at the personal end, and like Barbara, would have seen both the good and bad sides of Jeremy, but perhaps developed an attachment to him and a more balanced view, having seen him grow up.

Offline Adam

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2021, 06:15:PM »
Both guilters & supporters agree Bamber hated his parents.

Both supporters & guilters agree that doesn't make him an inheritance killer.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2021, 06:25:PM »
Both guilters & supporters agree Bamber hated his parents.

Both supporters & guilters agree that doesn't make him an inheritance killer.

Do they?  If I said, "I hate my parents", does this mean I hate my parents?  What people say should not always be taken literally.

I think the only real basis for believing Jeremy hated his parents is Julie Mugford's evidence, but supporters mostly reject her evidence entirely.

Offline Adam

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2021, 06:41:PM »
Do they?  If I said, "I hate my parents", does this mean I hate my parents?  What people say should not always be taken literally.

I think the only real basis for believing Jeremy hated his parents is Julie Mugford's evidence, but supporters mostly reject her evidence entirely.

Julie, Mary Mugford, James Richards, AE.

Bamber testified himself he didn't get on with June.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online Rob_

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2021, 06:44:PM »
Both guilters & supporters agree Bamber hated his parents.

Both supporters & guilters agree that doesn't make him an inheritance killer.

You can make anyone look bad quoting the odd phase taken maybe out of context.

Was the photograph of "I hate this place" showed to the jury? You never answered Adam, I think it was quite relevant to the case.

Offline Adam

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2021, 06:47:PM »
You can make anyone look bad quoting the odd phase taken maybe out of context.

Was the photograph of "I hate this place" showed to the jury? You never answered Adam, I think it was quite relevant to the case.

Why don't you find out & inform the forum. Preferably with the source.

Not sure how it is relevant. Considering no one knows who wrote it or when.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2021, 06:50:PM »
Julie, Mary Mugford, James Richards, AE.

Bamber testified himself he didn't get on with June.

Also Robert Boutflour.  Don't forget him!  And I'm sure we've missed somebody.  Maybe Barbara Wilson. 

I don't take the evidence from Mary Mugford or James Richards seriously. It's joke evidence.

Barbara Wilson's evidence was useful for the last phone call at 9.30 p.m. approximately, but not for much else.  Let us put in a word for fickle Barbara, though, as Orwell did for the Vicar of Bray: remember that Barbara was also willing to shop Peter Eaton for suspected fraud.

Ann Eaton and Robert Boutflour's evidence is only good for what they say about the search of the farmhouse.  There may be one or two other things that have slipped my mind, but you can't seriously expect me to rely on them for Jeremy's feelings about his parents?  You'll be trying to sell me cat basket insurance next.

Julie Mugford is where the action is at, and curiously it all rests on her word.

Did Colin Caffell mention anything about Jeremy saying he hates his parents or similar?  The nearest I recall is that, apparently, according to Colin, a week or so before the killings, Jeremy tried to suggest that his parents were using Colin in some way, or so Colin claims.  Not sure if that was entered in evidence, but Colin mentions it in his book.

While we're on that topic, why do you think Jeremy killed two six year-old-boys?  Just for the money, was it?  Would you accept that to kill them for the money, there would have to have been a strong underlying feeling of hatred towards them?  The rationalisation Jeremy allegedly gave Julie that the twins were already mentally-damaged is surely not convincing, even if he really said it.

Online Rob_

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2021, 06:56:PM »
Both guilters & supporters agree Bamber hated his parents.

Both supporters & guilters agree that doesn't make him an inheritance killer.

"Both guilters & supporters agree Bamber hated his parents" don't include me Adam.

Nevil and June obviously trusted him to a high degree otherwise they would not allow him to walk around with a loaded gun.

guest29835

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Re: Build up to 'That is what you have got to try and establish'.
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2021, 07:00:PM »
"Both guilters & supporters agree Bamber hated his parents" don't include me Adam.

Nevil and June obviously trusted him to a high degree otherwise they would not allow him to walk around with a loaded gun.

I always get confused about this murder plot notion they sometimes come out with.  Apparently, according to Colin, Barbara, David, Jimmy Savile, or Maggie Thatcher - I'm not sure who claims it, I always get mixed up - the Evil One, Jeremy, was plotting to murder Nevill.  I'm not quite sure how the inheritance motive fits in with this, but for sure, according to the claim, Nevill was putting together a dossier on Jeremy for the police.

Of course, naturally in these circumstances, Nevill would let Jeremy walk round with a loaded gun and keep him working on the farm.  That harvest needs bringing in!