Louis Theroux

[lookout]

Now I know the stupidity/ greed and over-zealousness of some people. Just been confirmed.

Just read that a motorist followed a tanker for miles only to find out it was carrying cement and not petrol !
Serves him right.
How can anyone mistake a cement wagon from a petrol tanker ? God help us !

It comes to something when police didn't know if it was a male or female in the kitchen----so they opted for both.

[Adam]

I believe using a push bike would have been madness.  I've been over it before with Adam, but Adam sticks to generalities and never goes into specifics, hence my questions.  Whenever Adam is pinned down on the nitty-gritty of one of his scenarios, he flounders and denies he ever said the precise thing he said.

The proven prosecution case is he took June's bike just before the massacre.

The prosecution then say he cycled to WHF & back. Using one of the easy routes.

All straight forward.

[Adam]

Julie also says Bamber planned to cycle to/from WHF.

[lookout]

Complete with wet-suit and flippers and load-sa money stashed in the basket on the bike.

[Adam]

DI Wilkinson on the bike routes. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4983.msg211463.html#msg211463

[guest29835]

The proven prosecution case is he took June's bike just before the massacre.

The prosecution then sat he cycled to WHF & back. Using one of the easy routes.

All straight forward.

I spent my early childhood in this very area, and it was at the time of the shootings.  I know the ground well.  Obviously I cannot rule out completely that he used a push bike, but what I can say is that the notion is at the margins of plausibility for lots of reasons: the prevailing weather that summer, the terrain, the nature of the routes at the time, the need to illuminate his way with bike lights making him vulnerable to being seen by anybody out at that time, the problem of running into some random person along the route.  The list goes on.  Even if we say Jeremy isn't the brightest spark, he would have realised these problems intuitively.

I think the only thing Essex Police did to test the bike theory was send one of their CID officers out on the route on a late summer day.  He concluded that it could be done.  There is a blogger who did similar and took photographs.  What neither of them did was test the route in the dead of night and in the conditions that would have pertained at that time - which may have required the selection of an analogous route - and neither seems to have taken into account that it was a murder plot and how this may have affected Jeremy's decisions.

You mention that Jeremy had the bike at the cottage, but that may be for innocent reasons.  I think the reason he gave was that Julie was borrowing it.  Why not?  Or it could be that Jeremy is guilty and was using the bike to scout the area after dark for routes to go on foot.

I'll say that you only have to think about it for five minutes to realise that, if he is guilty, he must have gone on foot, and this has broader implications for the case; but our discussion about this was very frustrating last time, so I'll leave it.

[Rob_]

Have you got a source. Or is it another new narrative?

It's your scenario Adam not mine!

It was something I saw on YouTube I might be able to dig it out.

[Adam]

It's your scenario Adam not mine!

It was something I saw on YouTube I might be able to dig it out.

Look forward to seeing it.

Wilkinson's WS does not mention a camp site.

[Steve_uk]

I spent my early childhood in this very area, and it was at the time of the shootings.  I know the ground well.  Obviously I cannot rule out completely that he used a push bike, but what I can say is that the notion is at the margins of plausibility for lots of reasons: the prevailing weather that summer, the terrain, the nature of the routes at the time, the need to illuminate his way with bike lights making him vulnerable to being seen by anybody out at that time, the problem of running into some random person along the route.  The list goes on.  Even if we say Jeremy isn't the brightest spark, he would have realised these problems intuitively.

I think the only thing Essex Police did to test the bike theory was send one of their CID officers out on the route on a late summer day.  He concluded that it could be done.  There is a blogger who did similar and took photographs.  What neither of them did was test the route in the dead of night and in the conditions that would have pertained at that time - which may have required the selection of an analogous route - and neither seems to have taken into account that it was a murder plot and how this may have affected Jeremy's decisions.

You mention that Jeremy had the bike at the cottage, but that may be for innocent reasons.  I think the reason he gave was that Julie was borrowing it.  Why not?  Or it could be that Jeremy is guilty and was using the bike to scout the area after dark for routes to go on foot.

I'll say that you only have to think about it for five minutes to realise that, if he is guilty, he must have gone on foot, and this has broader implications for the case; but our discussion about this was very frustrating last time, so I'll leave it.

You may as well go into it now as not all of us seem to have as much free time as yourself. Anyway it's not like you to spurn an opportunity to spout forth.

[guest29835]

You may as well go into it now as not all of us seem to have as much free time as yourself. Anyway it's not like you to spurn an opportunity to spout forth.

I've already gone into it - at great length and in detail - on another thread, and the essential points are in my posts immediately above.  I also don't have as much free time as you may think and don't have the time to rehash it all.

On a related note, among my collection of books on this case is one of those true crime magazine annuals that has a very simple, graphic version of the story in which Jeremy is shown driving from Goldhanger along the main roads and up to the farmhouse in the middle of the night, headlamps on!  I laughed, but the serious point is that this is not too far removed from what Adam and Essex Police and most guilters would have us believe actually occurred. 

Adam's style of simplifying this case is similar to the account in the graphic annual, in that it's intended for an average IQ readership who will take in what he is saying without questioning it and just assume Jeremy is guilty. 

Jeremy may well be guilty, but I prefer to examine the nitty-gritty of things, which is where I think many (not all) guilters start to flounder.

[lookout]

I've got all the time in the world, but still reach the same conclusion. In a case such as this it's far harder to find a person innocent than it is to be led by the world and his wife, and media, to a guilty verdict.
I think you guilters have got an easy ride. You take nothing into account apart from the fact that " he's guilty ", as was Derek Bentley until after he was hanged ! 

[Rob_]

I've got all the time in the world, but still reach the same conclusion. In a case such as this it's far harder to find a person innocent than it is to be led by the world and his wife, and media, to a guilty verdict.
I think you guilters have got an easy ride. You take nothing into account apart from the fact that " he's guilty ", as was Derek Bentley until after he was hanged !

How many innocent people did Spilsbury get hanged! if he gave evidence against you you were doomed!

[lookout]

How many innocent people did Spilsbury get hanged! if he gave evidence against you you were doomed!

Don't know him Rob.

[killingeve]

I have now re-listened to the podcast which seems very recent.  His supporters apparently worked with Bamber's legal team on the submission for the review people.  I made the following notes and it seems some form part of the submission

1. Police surgeon didn't take temperatures.  Had he done it would have showed Sheila died 4 or 5 hours earlier.

Is it possible to be so precise about when someone actually dies?

2. They [unsure exactly who "they" refers to] know Bamber is innocent.

What reason would the system have for framing an innocent man?

3. Claims Mr Bamber Snr called the police.

PC West seems to deal with this adequately in the doc.

4.  Claims Julie smuggled drugs from Canada.

What evidence exists to support this?

5.  Claims Sheila wrote a suicide note stating "I have just killed myself".

This certainly requires some explanation!  The deceased writing suicide notes 

6.  Claim Jury was misled about who went on to inherit Mr and Mrs Bamber's estates.

Thought this was dealt with in a previous submission?

7.  Claim to have found the grey hair and that it did not pertain to Mr Bamber snr.

Thought the biologist at trial said it held little forensic value so doubt jurors placed much weight on it.  Although I believe judge mentioned in his summing up.

8.  Claim 2 silencers were used to convict Bamber.  Talk about Robert Boutflour's blood group in silencer.  Also add 8% of population have same blood groups.

How would Robert Boutflour's blood get inside silencer.

9.  Claim police disturbed scene.

10. Claim lights/curtains on/off/opening/closing.

11. Claim Sheila made a 999 call.

12. Claim crime scene photos showed windows secured.

13. Claim burns were not caused by a person but unable to say what they were caused by as do not want to give the police a headstart.

Yvonne claims she is very confident the review people will refer to the appeal courts.  I think she might be disappointed.  Since watching the ITV doc, and during lockdown, I spent some time reading up on the case and to the best of my knowledge these points have either all been raised previously or could potentially have been raised at trial and are therefore redundant. 

[Rob_]

Don't know him Rob.

He was a pathologist used by the Crown in many cases, much of his evidence is now thought to be well resulting in many innocent people being hanged.

In one case a car had caught fire killing someone, a nut in the fuel line was loose and Spilsbury gave evidence that it had deliberately been undone. A expert from the fire bigrade for the defense said the nut had come loose because of the heat of the fire and he had seen this happen many times. The poor guy was found guilty anyway and hanged.