Author Topic: THE SILENCER SAGA  (Read 67988 times)

0 Members and 19 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #180 on: October 19, 2021, 05:09:PM »
As I said the forensic literature shows that a high % of gunshot wounds, contact and non-contact, do not result in any blood whatsover depositing in/on barrels.  Obviously in this case we're interested in silencers.

Surely it depends on how long contact is maintained, more than a half second or so with a head shot and blood is likely to be transferred to the barrel or silencer? So a contact shot to someone in bed who is not trying to escape ...

In the extract below the "leading to skull fractures" caught my eye.


Blood loss after a gunshot proves fatal
Since the brain stem is nestled safely at the back of the head, brain death is not usually the outright concern for the victim, but rather blood loss. The amount of blood that is potentially lost is directly influenced by the size and speed of the bullet fired. If a bullet hits any other part of the body, the impact is released to the adjoining body parts, often stabilizing the damage and saving the individual.

However, the case of the skull is unique, on account of its enclosed structure. If a high-speed bullet is fired into the skull, the skull bears the full brunt of the force, leading to skull fractures. Skull shards that pierce the brain at that point are even more difficult to remove than the bullet itself. If the skull is subjected to a high-speed, but small bullet, the worry is that the tiny bullet would ricochet around after entering the brain cavity, damaging several areas of the brain at once. The best-case scenario for survival is therefore a small, low-velocity bullet fired from a distance… with a low-caliber gun.

So far, we have discussed the gunshot mostly from a biological standpoint. Let’s now consider the fatality of the gunshot from a physics standpoint.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #181 on: October 19, 2021, 05:36:PM »
The CT & supporters dispute one piece of evidence - you guessed it. Out of 70+.

Even with this they are being crazy. RB putting his own blood in the silencer, then the relatives scratching the aga!
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #182 on: October 19, 2021, 05:37:PM »
The relatives would need to know -

Is Bamber innocent.

Sheila's arm lenght.

The rifle lenght with silencer.

Could Sheila have shot herself with the silencer attached.

What back splatter is.

Who of the 5 deceased received contact shots.

What locations would contact shots need to be to produce back splatter.

Where were the contact shots on the 5 deceased.

Is there any other forensic evidence against Sheila.

Was there a silencer next to Sheila.

How to realistically put blood into a silencer.

Where was Sheila's blood to insert into a silencer.

Did the rifle barrell already have blood on/in.

Did the crime scene photos show an unscratched aga.

Had the police already checked all silencers at WHF.

The chance of this one piece of framed evidence getting a conviction.

The punishment if caught doing this.

Confidence in each other that none would succumb to police pressure.

Sheila's blood group.

The blood group of each other.

----------

This had to be found out very quickly. Providing they have the idea & decide to go ahead.

Hopefully Rob can address these.

David can't.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48661
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #183 on: October 19, 2021, 06:21:PM »
Maybe they're bored seeing you churn the same things out on a daily basis-----I would be, if I took any notice.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #184 on: October 19, 2021, 06:58:PM »
Maybe they're bored seeing you churn the same things out on a daily basis-----I would be, if I took any notice.

They have to be adequately address.

Supporters focus on one piece of evidence out of over 70 - The silencer.

Agreeing it was Sheila's blood & the aga paint on. But amazingly claiming RB put his own blood in & scratched the aga!

Without evidence.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 07:00:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #185 on: October 19, 2021, 07:36:PM »
Surely it depends on how long contact is maintained, more than a half second or so with a head shot and blood is likely to be transferred to the barrel or silencer? So a contact shot to someone in bed who is not trying to escape ...

In the extract below the "leading to skull fractures" caught my eye.


Blood loss after a gunshot proves fatal
Since the brain stem is nestled safely at the back of the head, brain death is not usually the outright concern for the victim, but rather blood loss. The amount of blood that is potentially lost is directly influenced by the size and speed of the bullet fired. If a bullet hits any other part of the body, the impact is released to the adjoining body parts, often stabilizing the damage and saving the individual.

However, the case of the skull is unique, on account of its enclosed structure. If a high-speed bullet is fired into the skull, the skull bears the full brunt of the force, leading to skull fractures. Skull shards that pierce the brain at that point are even more difficult to remove than the bullet itself. If the skull is subjected to a high-speed, but small bullet, the worry is that the tiny bullet would ricochet around after entering the brain cavity, damaging several areas of the brain at once. The best-case scenario for survival is therefore a small, low-velocity bullet fired from a distance… with a low-caliber gun.

So far, we have discussed the gunshot mostly from a biological standpoint. Let’s now consider the fatality of the gunshot from a physics standpoint.

As I said the forensic lit shows a high % of contact gunshot wounds do not result in blood in/on barrel.  Wound site is one factor.  Other factors are velocity of ammunition and claibre of firearm.  But the lit relates to barrels only.  Obviously with this case it involves a silencer. 

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #186 on: October 19, 2021, 08:12:PM »
As I said the forensic lit shows a high % of contact gunshot wounds do not result in blood in/on barrel.  Wound site is one factor.  Other factors are velocity of ammunition and claibre of firearm.  But the lit relates to barrels only.  Obviously with this case it involves a silencer.

That's ok, the point I am trying to make is that 25 shots some of which are supposed to be contact shots and only one blob of blood on the silencer.

I am not casting dispersions how it got their just my surprise having seen a clip of a head shot that it's just one small blob of blood.

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #187 on: October 19, 2021, 08:21:PM »
Hopefully Rob can address these.

David can't.

Adam I can address these but in my opinion no silencer was used that night, if one was it was not the one found in the gun cupboard this was planted.

My previous post to which you replied was not concerned with how the blood got in the silencer but how small the amount of blood was that was found. Perhaps you misunderstood me?


Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #188 on: October 19, 2021, 08:24:PM »
Adam I can address these but in my opinion no silencer was used that night, if one was it was not the one found in the gun cupboard this was planted.

My previous post to which you replied was not concerned with how the blood got in the silencer but how small the amount of blood was that was found. Perhaps you misunderstood me?

You can't address them. So the relatives didn't fabricate the silencer.

Otherwise, over to you Lookout.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #189 on: October 19, 2021, 09:30:PM »
It looks like supporters are not going to address the massive obstacles the relatives would have.  If fabricating the silencer with human blood matching Sheila's. Together with the aga paint.

These obstacles must be overcome.

Rob has today refused. David, Lookout, Mike & JackieD have had years to but refused.

The CT make the claim without elaborating.

So surprising that supporters so passionately claim RB put his blood in & the relatives put the aga paint on. Without evidence.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #190 on: October 19, 2021, 10:08:PM »
That's ok, the point I am trying to make is that 25 shots some of which are supposed to be contact shots and only one blob of blood on the silencer.

I am not casting dispersions how it got their just my surprise having seen a clip of a head shot that it's just one small blob of blood.

Small amount outside.  Flake measuring about 1/2" inside along with some other blood staining on the upper baffles.

Offline Bubo bubo

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3331
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #191 on: October 20, 2021, 08:01:PM »
The scratches on the Aga

I have set out my scenario for the SM. There were two. The original Pargeter owned (DB1) and the Bamber SM which was manipulated to be a replica by creating the features of DB1 and the processes it had been subjected to. It was thereafter called DRB1

They had to switch them for the following reasons.

1 It was the Pargeter SM which was the original focus of their attention.

This would not ‘wash’ according to their scenario and would surely raise questions with regard to his Brno rifle and why would JB use AP’s SM on the Anschutz.

The SM DB1 was subjected to a lot of scientific tests and at least one dismantling. These activities had produced no evidence of worth apart from GH’s declaration that the blood was human in origin. Some claim it could have been rabbit because of a shared enzyme. No flake was found, even though it was said to be loose between baffles, when dismantled by RC.

2 It did not have paint on the knurled end.

Without the paint it could not be linked to the crime scene.

I have seen no evidence that GH found paint on the item DB1 on 13/08/85. Her statements do not mention paint. Her trial testimony revolves around the blood smears and her ability to use the Rifle with a SM attached. Her COLP statements are with regard to the changing of exhibit numbers, (part of the effort to examine JB’s complaint). However, she may have seen paint, but was being asked about blood, so she confined her report to that. Though you would imagine for clarity she would have mentioned it.

If I am wrong in this aspect, please direct me to the evidence. I will have to adjust my thinking.

3 They could not use the Pargeter SM DB1 at trial. If JB was asked to identify it as the family owned SM he would know it was not his.

If the police wanted use the original SM (DB1) they would have had to produce evidence of its use and presence. They would need to provide crime scene photos of it in situ together with documentation and a clear chain of custody. Was it in close proximity to the Brno? If it was fitted to the Brno they could have collected that as well but returned it to WHF having eliminated it as an exhibit because it had been cleaned of fingerprints and could not be used. They kept the SM because of the blood.

We only have the police version as to why they were looking for the source of the paint. Even here it appears they were asked about the paint in relation to ‘paint on the end of a rifle’.

The most vivid and detailed descriptions of a SM were provided by the family.

Because they are said to have found it, the police having missed it, no photographic record or an independent witness, to the find exists. We must rely on the family’s statements as to its journey from the finding to receipt by the police. Basil Cock’s statement appears to suggest another and wrong dating of the find.

To link it to the crime scene it had to have a linkage point.

They chose the paint from the AGA.

The scratches

There appear to be two types of mark on the underside of the mantle. Chips and scratches. Both could have been made in the same time episode but it is possible that they were made on different dates and we cannot know which was made first if they were not made during the same episode.
In my experience the chips were most likely made by a blow striking the surface, denting the underlying soft wood and causing the thick layer of paint to fracture. Some paint could have been trapped on the striking object. Without being misogynistic I am sure male readers may have come across this phenomenon when doing DIY badly. The scratches are more reminiscent of an object being dragged across the surface and again this process could leave paint on the object if the surface was pitted or grooved as the end of SM’ are.

The GER for DB1

This document shown on the ‘Lest we forget’ thread appears to be the original produced on 13/08/85 with an emphasis on blood location. Two major additions have been made. One indicates the location of the paint. The other indicates information with regard to the flake and bloodied baffles found by MF. The latter looks like Haywards writing. Who made the note about the paint? To my eyes it was not written by the originator of the document. (GH?)

The SM is recorded as DB1 even though RC said he understood it was found by SBJ and it was only later he realised his error. How and when did he realise this error? If he had not realised it by13/08/85 why did he allow the lab to record it as DB1 and not SBJ1? Three people have initialled the document.

Thoughts and issues.

It is possible that at some point during the investigation the police (Cook) realised that the early ‘fuming’ could have destroyed the viability of any blood inside the SM. Was this done on purpose? (see earlier posts). Was this issue raised by the family who knew more about ‘back spatter’? Did they accuse the police of destroying potential evidence due to incompetence?

This issue took place when Taff was in charge. Were they worried about possible use of the SM by the TFG? I can envisage circumstances which might lead them to use it.

I believe an SM was found on the day. If we are to believe that SJ went back to the farm to collect it. Of course he could say he collected it from the family. It is clear even at that stage that it was of significance but why we cannot know. They knew the Anschutz had been used but when JB told them his story they twigged his SM might have been involved and they needed to rule it in or out. One SM had already been found by DB.

I suggest that DB1 was collected as part of the clean-up operation. DB1 SM DB2 Fire Debris, etc..

Was the silencer used.

It is possible that Sheila did fit a SM but discarded it at some point most likely because it was unwieldy. It is possible that she hit Nevil with it and that on an upstroke it contacted the mantle. It is possible that she wanted to use it but cross threaded it and because it was locked (this can happen with a cross thread). she tried to remove it by bashing it around, again catching the mantle on an upstroke.

I do not agree with the notion that the lack of paint on the carpet below the impact point is indicative of foul play. It is suggested that this indicates the scratches were added later (no paint in the crime scene photos). The chips whenever they happened or whatever caused them could have ricocheted anywhere. The scratches are too superficial to reveal the underlying paint. If the police moved Nevil as I suggest they could have moved/repositioned the carpet as part of that process. Given the nature of the knurled end such scratches would be more likely to produce a fine dust and would need microscopic technology to see them. It would however allow paint to accumulate and collect in the surface dips.

Were the police involved?

The most powerful exhibit which was the lynch-pin of the prosecution case has by coincidence or design left the police appearing to be ‘squeaky clean’. They did not find it and it only came into their control days after the event. If the switch was made at the Laboratory (as I suggest), and subsequently this was exposed, the FSS could be blamed for mixing the SM’s up.

The family could have found the second silencer much later but without bringing the date of this find forward they could not account for a silencer being found prior to the 13/08/85 and its testing and documentation which would be required as part of the overall process. The police could not change the FSS documentation They also had to bear in mind that police officers and staff at the FSS knew of ‘A’ SM from the early stages of the investigation.

I am firmly of the opinion that the Pargeter SM was present with his rifle.

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #192 on: October 20, 2021, 10:09:PM »
David's claim that the relatives took diluted period blood from a bucket of water was dismissed years ago.

It is impossible to do.

Err...

Not if there was heavy menstral blood embedded into the panties belonging primarily to 'Sheila' in the kitchen bucket, as alluded to..
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Bubo bubo

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3331
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #193 on: October 21, 2021, 12:33:PM »
Err...

Not if there was heavy menstral blood embedded into the panties belonging primarily to 'Sheila' in the kitchen bucket, as alluded to..

I tend to dismiss the period blood theory. Whilst it is possible that some more dense blood material was lodged in the panties the family could not have known when they would have access to the property and they certainly would not have known that the buckets of blood stained clothes were in the kitchen. Thus they would have had to conceive and execute their plan in 24 hours or less. Whilst possible it really does seem most unlikely.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13705
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #194 on: October 21, 2021, 12:41:PM »
The scratches on the Aga

I have seen no evidence that GH found paint on the item DB1 on 13/08/85.

Its stated in the 13/08/85 holab form -

"Red stain on gridded pattern - KM negative"