Author Topic: THE SILENCER SAGA  (Read 67987 times)

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Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2021, 04:38:PM »
I don't have an account on that forum, so I cannot see the document. Can you post it here?
As requested relevant pages.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2021, 04:41:PM »
Is the above written in Chinese or Arabic: I can't make my mind up which.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2021, 04:50:PM »
THE SILENCER WAS RE-CREATED AND WHY PART 4

On the 06/09/85 a meeting was held between RWB and Peter Simpson Jeremy was charged 23 days later. We will never know what they discussed no matter how much we speculate.
The case took a huge turn and a new impetus was injected. On 07/09/85 Simpson asked Keneally to review the case. (he confirmed it was probably Sheila). Ainsley was promoted to SIO and TJ went on gardening leave.

I propose that Ainsley was to co-operate with and listen to the Family.

Coincidently on 07/09/85 Julie comes forward. (Was she spooked as previously outlined). Any case against Jeremy which only involved the SM irrespective of when discovered would be more suspicious. Julies testimony would add weight to the accuracy and soundness of the Crown case.

The plan was devised by the family and or the police. They would use the silencer as the fulcrum of the case.

They set about this by making September statements which detailed the finding of the silencer, the various interpersonal interactions, its various movements and finely detailed descriptions including a hair, paint and a jam type blob. It was placed in a cardboard tube with the ends sealed. Many believe these statements relating to the silencer were constructed at a later date as part of the framing. I do too, the simple answer is that the SM an important case exhibit was not mentioned at the outset.

 They did not even say (of course if they had it would be edited out) if the police had taken AP’s SM.

The police had sent the first SM (SM1) to the lab (13/08/85) so they had to have found it before this date. They settled on 10/08/85. This also meant that they could use the original documentation, activities etc. to form that part of the chain of custody.

They had two significant problems. SM1 was at the lab (30/08/85). * and had been rendered useless as an exhibit because of finger printing, superglue fuming and dismantling (21/08/85).

It is possible that TJ saw which way the wind was blowing and sent SM1 to the lab so it was out of reach. After all he had tested it to destruction and found nothing that questioned his case analysis. Further, it is not clear what further tests were planned/intended and MF did nothing with it until 12/09/85.
 Is there a confirmatory lab document to prove this and what tests were requested?

A much more serious and bigger problem was that SM1 belonged to AP. (Why would Jeremy shoot Sheila using AP’s SM on the Anschutz). An educated guess would be that he was told that it might be implicated in the tragedy and required a number of vigorous tests to be performed before it could be eliminated. If not implicated it would be returned in due course.

The silencer SM1 had 17 baffle plates. Close scrutiny of the dismantled SM photographs shows this. If you count the plates using the reflected light on each plate you can see that there are 17 plates and the washer. The spring is not shown. MT says that it was not known whether the Bamber SM had 15 or 17 because at the time it was bought there was a mixture of old and new stock in the market.

However, anyone who has taken part in some sports will know that even if an opponent or team mate uses an identical piece of equipment that you can recognise your own because of unique identifiers such as scratches, smears, maybe dents as well as wear and tear. AP’s silencer was quite old and I am sure he could recognise it. They had to swap it somehow. JB would not recognise it as his.
 
The guiding principle behind this plan was to ensure that there was no way SM2 could have been used to interfere with the finding of the flake and its testing. They needed to coordinate dates to ensure a clean timeline. We know they are good at timelines.

They used SM2 (Bamber) to scratch the mantle to create the ingrained paint on the knurled end. When this was carried out is open to question since it is likely that evidence around this would be doctored to fit. It may have been prepped in August but more likely in September since Eastwood said at trial that he obtained a paint sample from Cook on 14/09/85. Evidence I recall, says AE pointed this out in August thus indicating these marks at this stage were strongly and more likely related to SM1 and not SM2.

It might be useful if David1819 could add his thorough analysis of the scratches to this thread.

They discovered SM2 (so they say) on the 11/09/85 and it was collected the next day. Dating was crucial since the flake discovery 12/09/85 was before it reached the lab and the police did not have SM1 in their custody. I will have more to say on this aspect later as there is no evidence SM1 was at the lab.

It was fingerprinted by Eastwood and Davidson on 13/09/85. It was also fumed on this date and it is this fuming of SM2 that Cook told Ainsley about. Again putting this activity after the flake was found.

On 12/09/85 MF presented Hayward with the flake and SM1. He began testing on the day.
They had by 13/09/85 created a duplicate of SM1 called SM2 both had been treated to the same testing regime apart from the original tests performed by GH.

SM2 was sent to the lab on the 20/09/85 but this would almost break the guiding principle. On one document I have seen an obvious stroke has been added changing it to 26/09/85. If you study MT’s posts you will see he uses these two dates interchangeably.

As a result of all these efforts they had two SM’s at the lab. Police could then collect these. AP’s could be returned on the basis it was not required. It played no part. SM2 could then be used as the major exhibit it was meant to be. However, since it had never contained a flake it would be unlikely to show Sheila’s DNA.

It could be seen by fair minded folk that the silencer submitted on 11/09/85 was not in play and had yielded no evidence of note.

Either Cook or MF could have rebuilt SM1 incorrectly before it was sent to Hayward,
If SM2 had only 15 baffles when scrutinised by the defence and other evidence they had showed 17 baffles they could rumble the switch and the case would be lost.
 
I doubt the defence had any knowledge about SM2 at the time of the trial and many of the documents could be said to have no bearing on the case and could therefore legally withheld i.e. not disclosed.
At the time of charging AP would most likely have no idea about the evidence that was to be used in the charges Jeremy would face. The relatives could even say we found Jeremy’s SM and handed it in etc., etc.

* It is possible that SM2 was created extremely quickly but 5 days max looks tricky. In this scenario MF presents Hayward with SM2 and the flake. I believe it less likely and how did he get it into the lab?

Jeremey’s Tumbler article is spot on even if he had not at that time connected all the dots.

Once again I invite you to pick this to pieces. Critique is a useful tool in understanding issues of all varieties.



« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 12:33:PM by Bubo bubo »

Offline Rob_

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2021, 06:18:PM »
Very interesting series of posts.

The question I ask myself is why if JB did the crime did he not just take the moderator off the rifle and leave it beside SC? Also why leave it somewhere where it was bound to be found and prove his quilt? he would at least have given it a clean up, he would not have put it away with hair and paint on it??

That's assuming the moderator was on the gun in the first place? is there any evidence from the wounds support this?

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2021, 06:34:PM »
I do not believe there is any evidence of victims wounds looking to have been caused by a SM.
I share your views on JB's behaviour in the circumstances. You have to remember that TJ and co had no intention of pursuing JB in the first instance. They were more concerned with (a) getting Taff to support what the TFG were saying as the truth or otherwise for the internal investigation, (b) keeping the family out of the investigation and generally making a nuisance of themselves and (c) doing all the proper routine stuff based on 4 murders and a suicide. They had a mountain of evidence to process, interviews to be documented etc. In the early stages they did not suspect JB because they had  evidence that showed him innocent.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2021, 06:54:PM »
I do not believe there is any evidence of victims wounds looking to have been caused by a SM.
I share your views on JB's behaviour in the circumstances. You have to remember that TJ and co had no intention of pursuing JB in the first instance. They were more concerned with (a) getting Taff to support what the TFG were saying as the truth or otherwise for the internal investigation, (b) keeping the family out of the investigation and generally making a nuisance of themselves and (c) doing all the proper routine stuff based on 4 murders and a suicide. They had a mountain of evidence to process, interviews to be documented etc. In the early stages they did not suspect JB because they had  evidence that showed him innocent.
Nonsense.

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2021, 07:00:PM »
The relatives would need to know -

Sheila's arm lenght.

The rifle lenght with silencer.

Different positions Sheila could have shot herself with silencer attached. If arms were long enough.

What back splatter is.

Who else received contact shots.

What locations would contact shots need to be to produce back splatter.

Did Sheila receive contact shots in a location which produces spatter.

Were there contact shots on everyone. 

Was there any spatter in the rifle barrel.

Is there any other forensic evidence against Sheila.

How to realistically put blood into a silencer to create the back spatter effect.

How could they obtain Sheila's blood.

What blood group was Sheila.

What blood group was everyone else.

Did the crime scene photos show an unscratched aga.

Had the police already checked all silencers at WHF.

Was there a silencer lying next to Sheila.

The chance of this frame attempt getting a conviction.

The punishment if caught doing this.

----------

This would have to be found out quickly. Once they had the bizarre idea in the first place & agreed to proceed.


'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2021, 07:02:PM »
Obviously the police are ruled out of fabricating the silencer.

They wouldn't have dared ask several relatives to pretend they found it. Also no point doing this.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2021, 07:04:PM »
Very interesting series of posts.

The question I ask myself is why if JB did the crime did he not just take the moderator off the rifle and leave it beside SC? Also why leave it somewhere where it was bound to be found and prove his quilt? he would at least have given it a clean up, he would not have put it away with hair and paint on it??

That's assuming the moderator was on the gun in the first place? is there any evidence from the wounds support this?
In the Andrew Hunter Book Draft he mentions two gun enthusiasts in Ewen Smith's office who noticed silencer marks around Sheila's neck. As for your first point I think he panicked at this stage and realized it was nigh on impossible for his sister to shoot herself with the silencer attached. He didn't want to complicate the crime by implying that a mentally-frail woman had used a sound moderator, which would imply premeditation and is why he didn't leave it by her side.

It is possible that the sound moderator wasn't used, but all that means is that the relatives shored up the evidence against him, not that he is an innocent man.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 07:06:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2021, 07:06:PM »
The relatives alerted the police to the blood and paint on the silencer and the scratches under the mantle shelf long before the lab even confirmed this was the case. Thus they have guilty knowledge and there are serious discrepancies in their statements and trial testimony regarding the silencer.

Moreover they alerted the police of this "find" the day after Jeremy asked them to buy back their farm land that Nevil payed for. Money they didn't have and would result in most their farm and livelihood being sold off.

IMO only the relatives (Ann Eaton in particular) had the means, motive and opportunity to contaminate it.

Do you believe the relatives would try to frame (at the time) an innocent man of murdering his family. Over some land?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 07:16:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Rob_

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2021, 07:41:PM »
In the Andrew Hunter Book Draft he mentions two gun enthusiasts in Ewen Smith's office who noticed silencer marks around Sheila's neck. As for your first point I think he panicked at this stage and realized it was nigh on impossible for his sister to shoot herself with the silencer attached. He didn't want to complicate the crime by implying that a mentally-frail woman had used a sound moderator, which would imply premeditation and is why he didn't leave it by her side.

It is possible that the sound moderator wasn't used, but all that means is that the relatives shored up the evidence against him, not that he is an innocent man.

Sheila would have just grabbed the gun and used it as it was, there would have been no premeditation involved on her part. I know nothing about guns but would have thought it would be easy for the police to establish if a moderator was on the gun? JB would have thought so as well hence more reason to just leave it beside Sheila?

As you say if the moderator evidence was fabricated this does not prove JB innocent but he would never have been convicted without it, also it makes the four murders one suicide much the most likely scenario to me anyway.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2021, 07:48:PM »
Sheila would have just grabbed the gun and used it as it was, there would have been no premeditation involved on her part. I know nothing about guns but would have thought it would be easy for the police to establish if a moderator was on the gun? JB would have thought so as well hence more reason to just leave it beside Sheila?

As you say if the moderator evidence was fabricated this does not prove JB innocent but he would never have been convicted without it, also it makes the four murders one suicide much the most likely scenario to me anyway.
That's possible Rob, but she just wasn't coordinated enough to land all shots on target unlike Jeremy, who had used guns from an early age on the Farm and at school.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2021, 10:17:PM »
In the Andrew Hunter Book Draft he mentions two gun enthusiasts in Ewen Smith's office who noticed silencer marks around Sheila's neck. As for your first point I think he panicked at this stage and realized it was nigh on impossible for his sister to shoot herself with the silencer attached. He didn't want to complicate the crime by implying that a mentally-frail woman had used a sound moderator, which would imply premeditation and is why he didn't leave it by her side.

It is possible that the sound moderator wasn't used, but all that means is that the relatives shored up the evidence against him, not that he is an innocent man.
Are you serious? You are suggesting that the silencer was a fake. This was the key piece of the Crowns case against JB which helped seal his fate.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 08:24:AM by Bubo bubo »

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2021, 10:22:PM »
That's possible Rob, but she just wasn't coordinated enough to land all shots on target unlike Jeremy, who had used guns from an early age on the Farm and at school.
You are both assuming that AP's rifle was not present or usable. That it did not have the silencer already attached from the previous weeks shooting with JB. In my narrative it was at the farm and it could easily have been the weapon that was used in the first instance. This would mean a slower development of the chaos that ensued. She may have tried to use AP's SM but could not manage it or removed it because she found it unwieldy.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2021, 10:31:PM »
Nonsense.
Obviously your mind is frozen in a guilty pattern. If Taff had a phone call from Nevill, if there was a large difference in RM between the twins and Nevill  as opposed to Sheila and June, if he knew the TFG had shot June by accident or if he knew the TFG had staged the crime scene all these issues and more would prove innocence. I know you were away from the forum but have you not read any of my Narrative?